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Author Topic: How many fine tuners do you play with  (Read 13162 times)

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Offline alwyswinn

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #25 on: Jun 04, 2003, 11:56:12 PM »
Thanx for the answer Bob.  I did a little more research on those fine tuning pegs the only ones available are the cello pegs for now.  You can get the violin pegs by buying a knilling violin but the company plans to make just the pegs available soon at about $100 US.  They need to professionally installed my shop says $75 for the install and once installed it would take about $180 to reverse the process as they need to be glued in.

Rob

Offline giannaviolins

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #26 on: Jun 05, 2003, 12:04:19 AM »
Seems as if feelings run high on this one.  No doubt at all that adding excess mass to a tailpiece has a distinct and not good influence on sensitive violins.  This is one of the fastest tuneups we do.  Even with a nice wood tailpiece with a single fine tuner we sometimes find improvement by tuning it just a little by removing some wood.  Very sensitive.  We work with this stuff all the time.  The jump in responsiveness and warmth from removing a "heavy metal" setup is often quite remarkable.

That said, some violins (mainly factory ones) don't care.  And some violinists can't seem to hear what appears as an obvious difference to us.

I like 4 FT on steel strings, but I use either a metal tailpiece or a fancy Pusch (?) wood with the built in tuners.  Those sometimes take lightening to work right.  At the moment I'm running violin 2003-1 with heavy Helicores, 1 FT.  I don't seem to notice any problems tuning.  Of course, it has new and well-fitted pegs of high quality.  Some pegs give me fits.

Steve

Offline Bob

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #27 on: Jun 05, 2003, 02:04:04 AM »

That said, some violins (mainly factory ones) don't care.  And some violinists can't seem to hear what appears as an obvious difference to us.

The sound of a violin only really seems to 'mature' at about 3 feet distance and its often difficult for a player to make a judgement. I've often noticed that differences in sound from tweaking are more apparent at some distance removed.

And as Steve indicates, good pegs can tune steel strings. I'm surprised how often with the E string I can get the right pitch quickly using just a peg.

Offline dalebygod

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #28 on: Jun 06, 2003, 05:21:14 AM »
I play with four tuners too. I can see no difference in the tone, and I play in a recording studio everyday. I've tried both. No difference. But I do believe a fiddle settles in after a certain time, and using the keys to tune to much don't do a fiddle much good. But with the new richer strings, we might just be over looking the unsettling part of it. I do know, that if I set a sound post and play it for a few months, and move it just a bit, then reset it to the same place, the fiddle becomes a bit unsettled for awhile.
I do play with a string mute on a few songs just for a difference song on a certain song, but in most cases, I play with the mute pushed back. But this is just my opinion.. Good luck!
Maybe we should remember that yrs ago they played on gut strings.
got a minute? check this out!
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Offline Jack002

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #29 on: Jun 06, 2003, 02:16:01 PM »
Well, I may of gone overboard on a reply in this thread. Rob, I hope you don't think I was making fun of you or anything, sorry if I made you mad, didn't mean to.  :saint: :)

I guess I came off looking kinda stupid here, but if you re-read the quote from the rec.music.strings thing I think that sums it up all very well. Here, I'll repost it here:

While I agree with Werner (and Peter Schug's elaboration) comment that all of these things affect the sound of a violin (that why my instruments only has tuner  on E), I think we need to observe that many of these effects are observable only on better instruments and ...better violinists.
A beginning student with 4 tuners on the tail piece may not notice a
lick of difference on his lower end instrument. Such instruments may
have so many other detraction that removing the fine tuners would yield no perceivable improvements.


Thats the whole issue of tuners right there. SOME of us are not able to hear the difference (I like the 3 foot rule, makes sense to me) and SOME fiddles will not be helped by all the tailpiece lightening you can do. So, assuming that you have a high level instrument, you should heed the advice and take all the tuners off, or just leave the E. I'd reconsider tho, if you had a lower level instrument. While I recognise the fact, I think that me and my fiddle are exempt, and removing them will only create frustration due to having only pegs to work with to tune it and no benefit in sound or tone.

Offline WWcringe

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #30 on: Jun 06, 2003, 02:46:20 PM »
The moral of the story?

Well I have to admit that I have never tried a tailpiece with less than four (integral) fine adjusters on my current violin. Perhaps using a wooden tailpiece without the adjusters would make a difference to the tone, but...

Since I love the tone it makes presently there is no way I would ever consider doing anything to change it!! [Especially not removing fine adjusters, which would make my life harder]

And... for the 'record' (excuse the pun) - I do a lot of recording. Sometimes "close mic'd", some not - on Wed evening I was recording some string parts in a good commerical studio here in Manchester, using an AKG C414 about a metre away in a relatively dry room. I was very pleased with all aspects of the tone, listening back to the unaffected recording through a really good set of studio monitors.

Tom

Offline alwyswinn

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #31 on: Jun 06, 2003, 05:48:28 PM »
No hard feelings here Jack.  There are few things I like better than a heated debate that's why I started the subject I bet there was quite a few people out there that didn't even know this was an issue.  Now they have access to all kinds of opinions this forum is deffinately the most valuable resource I have found on the web.  I agree that on low end violins pretty much the only thing you can do to improve the tone is replace it but if they weren't available I would never have even started fiddling as there is no way I would spend over $1000 for something I couldn't even play.  My first violin cost me $60 new from a wholesaler and it was barely possible to get tension on the strings to hold so I could use the fine tuners that were built into the tail piece my current fiddle has pegs that turn so easily it seems like a sin to have all that metal on thetailpiece.
      On another front I'm not sure who said it but it confuses me how using properly fit pegs that turn easily could damage a violin.  I can tune mine while its under my chin.  It seems that if turning my pegs was exerting excessive force on my fiddle it would pop out from under my chin.  I would be interested to know how the person that said tuning with the pegs can ruin a fiddle came to conclusion.  Was it an assumption or is there actually somesort of evidence to support this.  I know a lot of people who put horrible things like rosin and chalk and all manner of substances on their pegs to keep them from slipping doing this can deffinately ruin the peg box anbd make it nearly impossible to tune with the pegs.  Ok thats enough for now.

Sorry so long

Rob

Offline Bob

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #32 on: Jun 06, 2003, 08:23:56 PM »
     On another front I'm not sure who said it but it confuses me how using properly fit pegs that turn easily could damage a violin.  I can tune mine while its under my chin.  It seems that if turning my pegs was exerting excessive force on my fiddle it would pop out from under my chin.  I would be interested to know how the person that said tuning with the pegs can ruin a fiddle came to conclusion.  Was it an assumption or is there actually somesort of evidence to support this.  I know a lot of people who put horrible things like rosin and chalk and all manner of substances on their pegs to keep them from slipping doing this can deffinately ruin the peg box anbd make it nearly impossible to tune with the pegs.  Ok thats enough for now.

This is complete b******s - as you say. If you have a valuable violin you might want to use box for pegs as its softer than the maple peg box. Ebony is harder and over time elongates peg holes - but they can be expertly rebushed.

Offline alwyswinn

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #33 on: Jun 06, 2003, 10:20:06 PM »
Thanx for saying that Bob.  I just got off the phone with a luthier and his feeling was if your pegs are not turning easily or need to be pushed in to the peg box with extreme force there is something wrong.  He also said that over time the pegs can become oval causing them to be difficult to turn or to easy to turn.  There should be no difficulties tuning a violin with properly fitted pegs is his feeling.  If your pegs are difficult to use he suggested having them fitted properly which should cost about $75 assuming the pegs dont need to be replaced.  He also said even products that are marketed for pegs like peg drops and the like create numerous problems as they increase the friction coeffecient of the peg quickly rendering them useless.  If your pegs are slipping or hard to use $75 to make them work is pretty good not quite as cheap as fine tuners but it deffinately won't affect the sound of the violin.

Offline Bob

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #34 on: Jun 06, 2003, 10:43:08 PM »
Thanx for saying that Bob.  I just got off the phone with a luthier and his feeling was if your pegs are not turning easily or need to be pushed in to the peg box with extreme force there is something wrong.  He also said that over time the pegs can become oval causing them to be difficult to turn or to easy to turn.  There should be no difficulties tuning a violin with properly fitted pegs is his feeling.  If your pegs are difficult to use he suggested having them fitted properly which should cost about $75 assuming the pegs dont need to be replaced.  He also said even products that are marketed for pegs like peg drops and the like create numerous problems as they increase the friction coeffecient of the peg quickly rendering them useless.  If your pegs are slipping or hard to use $75 to make them work is pretty good not quite as cheap as fine tuners but it deffinately won't affect the sound of the violin.

I'd agree entirely. By the time most people take their violin in with peg problems its generally too late to resusitate them though and new ones are needed. I charge £60 for 4 + the cost of the pegs (customers choice of) so that $75 seems reasonable. And yes the use of peg paste indicates a problem. I was always taught to make new pegs lock completely and then make them slip with graphite and various other compounds. I assume this was the Hill method and it works. Done properly and with good wood they can last for 20 odd years before needing attention. My main violin had its pegs fitted about 25 years ago and I can still tune it whilst playing and faster than the adjusters which I added to use Helicores. I'm thinking of going back to gut (Eudoxa's) though in which case I'll ditch the Wittner tail-piece and fit a rosewood tailpiece with possibly a tuner for the E. I'm actually looking forward to it!

Offline Tork____

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #35 on: Jun 08, 2003, 05:33:48 PM »
I have to agree with having as few fine tuners as possible. If you have a well bushed peg box or pegs custom fitted specifically to your violin tuning is really quite nippy. I use only one tuner on the E, and a loop E-string to increase the length of resonant string. I can hear the difference when you take the tuners off; the violin sounds more alive and articulate. Luvit!

Having said that you probably don't want to be fadging around with pegs on stage... I play solo and chamber music so i like my violin sounding as projective as possible!
I'd imagine my viewpoint would change if i were playing with a band, or other styles of music.

-Adrian

Offline WWcringe

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #36 on: Jun 08, 2003, 11:20:51 PM »
Good point there!

[Although I'm still adamant I can tune faster than anyone use pegs, there's a challenge!  :o]

Tom

Offline Fiddlebuddy

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #37 on: Jun 09, 2003, 05:31:34 AM »
Wow, it's almost as bad as those "Taste Great - Less Filling"  Beer ads some years back!! :smile2:

I had 4 tuners on my student violin years back.  Then I read somewhere that there great on steel strings, but not nylon or synthetic.  So I took them off, all accept the E.

WOW!!  It made a difference to my $400 student model.  It came more alive, and projected better.

Now, on my newest violin, I have only the one.  I have learned to use the pegs to tune, and it's not a problem since I've been doing it for years.  I tune "under the chin", and with the bow.  Probably a new thread here, but I think that the tuning is different Arco instead of Pizzicato.  (Arco = Bow.  Pizzicato = plucking)

I use Dominants on the A, D, and G.  I use a loop Gold Label Pirastro on the E.

If I has Steel, heck yea, give me all 4.  

Offline alwyswinn

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #38 on: Jun 09, 2003, 08:26:36 AM »
You know fiddlebuddy I was noticing that tonite as I was tuning with my pegs it has to do with how your bowing i guess but deffinately a few cents differnce between the two as far as I can see

Offline WWcringe

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #39 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:16:53 PM »
I never used to think there was much of a difference between
tuning arco or pizz but I have found it more recently - and I think it is much worse with old strings. The D and G I have on at the moment are quite old now (I don't know how long they've been on for but they need changing) and although they sound good and tuning is fine bowed, there seems to be a big dicrepancy between bowing and plucking the strings.

If anyone out there (perhaps Bob?) who knows about physics (Michael?) and violins could explain this I'd be very grateful...

...and while they're at it!!

Why are adjusters meant to be good for steel strings but not nylon??

Tom  8)

Offline madfiddler

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #40 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:25:17 PM »
Of course, tuners can also be pretty slow.... if you forget to reset them once in a while  :P
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Offline WWcringe

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #41 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:26:26 PM »
Very true  :P

Tom

Offline simon

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #42 on: Jun 09, 2003, 03:49:38 PM »
I only have the fine tuner on my E string and I've never had any problem tuning with pegs. Correction, occasionally I have a day where I just can't get the damn in tune at all. I don't know if it's down to me or to the fiddle, or to an inauspicious planetary alignment, but on days like that when I just can't hear a perfect fifth, I don't think fine tuners would make much difference to me.

According to the packet my Helicores come in, they are designed specifically for use with fine tuners (the built-in type I think). Does that mean that in fact I'm not getting the best sound out of them?

Offline Pipers Wine Fiddler

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #43 on: Jun 09, 2003, 04:50:54 PM »
Hi Tom,

Why are adjusters meant to be good for steel strings but not nylon??

... I don't think they will harm nylon strings. But for steel they are much more convenient than tuning with the pegs (some people even say that they are essential to tune steel strings) simply because steel strings need much less change in tension to influence the pitch. So it is difficult to tune a steel string because the minimum amount of turn that you can control with a peg is not small enough to really get the string in tune. With a fine tuner you can tune a steel strings several notes up and down without even touching the peg. With a nylon tring, a fine tuner will do much less change in pitch (see how I use my new learned word pitch?  ;).

Regards

Holger

Offline WWcringe

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #44 on: Jun 09, 2003, 09:54:20 PM »
Many thanks Holger, I should have known that, but didn't.

Tom

Offline Bob

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #45 on: Jun 09, 2003, 10:14:58 PM »
Hi Tom,... I don't think they will harm nylon strings.
Very well put Holger.

Adjusters won't harm synthetic or gut cored strings but  as these are thicker they are often difficult to fit into the slot of standard adjusters. It is possible to buy adjusters for these strings.

Another more technical reason is that syntethic or gut strings possess a kind of hysteresis which makes tuning more difficult with adjusters. Simply put they stretch more than steel - adjusters tune in a linear fashion and this does not suit these strings. Pegs are better suited for this reason - for some reason the friction enables the player to judge very precisely how far to turn to the right note with no 'overshoot'. You need good pegs for this though. I've said it before (and doubtless I'll say it again!  :) ) that the acid test for a well set-up violin are the pegs. If its a new violin, or its a new set of pegs, and you can't tune on the shoulder with no hint of sticking - change your luthier!

Offline fiddleblu

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #46 on: Jun 17, 2003, 02:39:11 AM »
I have machine heads. They weigh about as much as the rest of the violin, but I'm willing to take that. "Man vänjer sig" (You get used)

I'll second that! I hated them at first but they were original to my 'pioneer' fiddle so I just left them there in the name of authenticity. And, oh, were they heavy!

I love them now that I'm used to them. I haven't had to tune my fiddle one little bit in two months :smile2:

Offline japo heather

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #47 on: Jun 24, 2003, 09:42:20 AM »
i was doing a physics paper on violins and if i was at home wiht my own computer etc i would hook my fiddle up to a program i have that records sound waves. i would test with and without fine tuners and see if the shape of the waves differs - but im 9hrs or soemthing from home so i cant do that! would be an interesting thing to do but! i use 4 myself but thats just because my fiddle came with 4 and i always have used 4. i also have issues with my pegs! interesting reading mind u!

Offline Jack002

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #48 on: Jun 24, 2003, 03:53:04 PM »
i was doing a physics paper on violins and if i was at home wiht my own computer etc i would hook my fiddle up to a program i have that records sound waves. i would test with and without fine tuners and see if the shape of the waves differs - but im 9hrs or soemthing from home so i cant do that! would be an interesting thing to do but! i use 4 myself but thats just because my fiddle came with 4 and i always have used 4. i also have issues with my pegs! interesting reading mind u!
I'd be interested in the results of this study, but SHAPE of the wave is not what I want to hear about , its the SIZE. Magnatude should be something to look at. (Maybe you mean that when you mean shape?) Magatude is equal to volume. I hope that theres a set way to bow the string so that its exactally the same both times.

Jack

Offline alwyswinn

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Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #49 on: Jun 24, 2003, 10:22:20 PM »
I think size and shape will be different as the fine tuners do alter the tone as well as the volume just a hypothesis based upon what my ears and luthier tell me.

 




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