Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Forum Shops

Affiliates



Log in to see the full forum. Guests only see a taster!

Author Topic: How many fine tuners do you play with  (Read 13161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
How many fine tuners do you play with
« on: Jun 01, 2003, 09:11:57 PM »
When I first started fiddling I had a violin that had the fine tuners in the tailpiece you know built in.  I bought a much nicer violin and put fine tuners on all the strings because I was convinced I couldn't tune with out them.  A guy whose  opinion matters to me once said that the fine tuners were the worst thing to add to a fiddle as they also add wieght to the tailpiece which adds a dead metallic sound to your fiddle. I thought about this and realized my fiddle did sound some what metallic and that it didn't when I first played it.  It took a bit of getting used to but I can now tune rather quickly using only one fine tuner(on the E string and a rather light and small one at that) I notice a marked difference in sound especially on the G string.  What do you guys think about fine tuners how many do you use????
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2003, 07:54:01 PM by Rob Winn »

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #1 on: Jun 02, 2003, 03:05:40 PM »
I use four, my fiddle sounds great and I tune faster than anyone I know.

Those players who insist on tuning with pegs all the time are consistently slow to tune, and the excessive use of their pegs means they become lessreliable over time.

What is the point in making life difficult? It's not big, and it's not clever. And if you look a bit further you will find many full time players (in all spheres of music) that use fine adjusters...

Tom :hungo:

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #2 on: Jun 02, 2003, 03:31:01 PM »
Ditto here. Four tuners on the last three fiddles I've owned. Its not metalic at all as far as I can tell. I've not heard the last fiddle without them as it came with them on, but my first one had none, I played it, and added them, and I couldn't tell the difference.

I hate pegs. They're so prehistoric!  ;D I now only need to fool with them when I put strings on, and then its just fine tuners all the way out after that. I'd hate to have to fine tune with them. (My main fiddle has issues with the peg holes being a bit big anyway, so fine tuners help me to avoid using them)

Jack, thats my story, and I'm sticking to it, with pegdope!  :smile2:
« Last Edit: Jun 02, 2003, 03:32:20 PM by Jack002 »

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #3 on: Jun 02, 2003, 03:36:34 PM »
<...>
A guy whose  opinion matters to me once said that the fine tuners were the worst thing to add to a fiddle as they also add wieght to the tailpiece which adds a dead metallic sound to your fiddle. <...>
Hmmm, I'm confused here. I know I've seen tailpieces with all 4 fine tuners built in. What about these? Are they metallic sounding too?

Jack <==  ???

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #4 on: Jun 02, 2003, 04:03:24 PM »
My tailpiece is made out of metal with the fine tuners built in, and no my violin doesn't sound 'metallic'. I can't really see why it would.

Tom

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #5 on: Jun 02, 2003, 04:15:26 PM »
5, 4 & 4 I have a complete set of tuners on my 3 violins (ones a 5 string) I go along with Toms sentiments here why make life difficult.

Al
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline spelare

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #6 on: Jun 02, 2003, 04:38:37 PM »
Counting the kids fiddles, 4 out of 5 have tailpieces with built-in tuners.  Don't leave home without 'em!

If anybody's concerned about the metallic effect, the Wittner (sp?) tailpiece now comes in a new "composite" (plastic) material that works fine, though I've tried all of them, I think, and can't say there's a difference soundwise.

Tailpiece collection:

1/4 violin (no longer have this one - kids grow): Thomastik (all metal)
1/2 violin: Wittner plastic
3/4 violin: Wittner metal
4/4 violin: individual tuners first, then a Pusch (sp?) - ebony with built-in tuners (nice looking and functional, but not the easiest to restring)
4/4 violin: Bois d'Harmonie boxwood with built-in tuners - this is the top of the line ( cost about $120!), and I wouldn't buy one myself, but the fiddle (bought used from a guy who thought he wanted to learn:)) already had it on.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #7 on: Jun 02, 2003, 04:45:05 PM »
Where to start....  So all you intelligent people are going to sit here and tell me that adding 3 or 4 pieces of metal to your fiddles tail piece (these chuncks of metal wiegh more than the tailpiece even perhaps) which even on many electric fiddles is normally made out of wood and by the way is supposed to swing and vibrate with your playing has no affect on the sound??  It is not physically possible  for this to be true.  Do any of you play with a mute ever?  I have one that is a very light mute that only cuts the sound down to about 3/4 of its original.  Perhaps you have seen one its aplastic tube with little bits of metal in it with wires that hold on to your strings.  I havent actually put them on a scale but i bet it wieghs less than one fine tuner (let alone 3 or 4) and it makes a marked difference to the sound of my fiddle how then would all the wieght on your tailpiece not.  And not to leave anyone out as far as the metal tail piece with them built in perhaps the wieght issue isn't as big but there is no way it sounds the same as a wooden one or maybe a composite (anyone tried that I have thought of it but would like to hear a fiddle with one first)  Does a clarinet sound like a sax do you think the differences in the materials they are made out of have anything to do with this.  I' m just as much for making things easy as the next guy and i'll say it again tuning with the pegs is not that hard Paganini used to do while he was playing.  Once your strings stretch in you shouldn't be tuning much any way.  I could go on but bottom line if you don't think adding a whole mess of metal to your violin makes it sound different your wrong and science proves it if you like the metallic sound it results in thats ok certain types of music sound better that way.  By the way my electric has four fine tuners on it I like the way all that metal makes it sound.

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #8 on: Jun 02, 2003, 07:09:15 PM »
Where to start....  So all you intelligent people are going to sit here and tell me that adding 3 or 4 pieces of metal to your fiddles tail piece
which even on many electric fiddles is normally made out of wood and by the way is supposed to swing and vibrate with your playing has no affect on the sound??


Yup, pretty much!  :) I've heard one of my fiddles with them off it. Sounds the same to me. I can try listening to my latest one with them off, if its really different, I'll come back here and post it.

(these chuncks of metal wiegh more than the tailpiece even perhaps)

I think that all four of mine are lighter than the tailpiece. They're pretty small and light.

It is not physically possible  for this to be true.  Do any of you play with a mute ever?  I have one that is a very light mute that only cuts the sound down to about 3/4 of its original.

Yeah, I have a mute. Mine fits on the bridge, right ON it, not on the tailpiece. I can try to put it on the tailpiece over the fine tuners and see if it mutes it any there.


Perhaps you have seen one its aplastic tube with little bits of metal in it with wires that hold on to your strings.  I havent actually put them on a scale but i bet it wieghs less than one fine tuner (let alone 3 or 4) and it makes a marked difference to the sound of my fiddle how then would all the wieght on your tailpiece not.  

I've never seen one of these. Who sells em? Where can I see one?

Once your strings stretch in you shouldn't be tuning much any way.

Mine needs to be tuned about once a week or so, I check it every day tho. Doesn't changing temps and humidity affect the tune of it?

I'm not at all against trying things out. I'd do some experiments to see what affects it and how much. The tailpiece is there to hold the end of the string. The string vibrates, and the bridge, and somewhat, the tailpiece, but the main path of vibration travels into the bridge, then into the body, and I can see how the tailpiece needs to be light enough to not deaden that vibration, but only so much, I'd think. I'm not a luthier or a physics teacher, but thats how it looks to me just from what I understand. The proof is in the testing. I'd try it out and see what happens. If this is true that tuners deaden the sound, then I'd have to start huntung for some tuners that replace the pegs somehow. I've seen one thats really slick. It was somewhere on the web, a tuner that LOOKS like a peg, but it has hidden gears inside it.
I hated to add the tuners, but I really cannot live with the peg-in-a-hole method of fine tuning. I'm glad to just get the pegs to hold at all.

Any advances that I make on this from experiments, or from talking to some luthiers, I'll let you all know. I'd love to hear from any luthiers here too!

Jack

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #9 on: Jun 02, 2003, 07:42:59 PM »
The mute I was talking about goes on the bridge and holds the strings behind the bridge you can look at them at southweststrings.com I think or swstrings.com I don't remember which.  The person who got me started on this was a luthier and it was his feeling that the use of fine tuners was the single biggest problem with violin sound today.  You know i have seen those pegs that are fine tuners and if anyone has used them or knows how much they cost or even if its something you can install yourself or if a shop needs to put them in let me know.  I'd say also that tuning once a week is not that often.

Rob

Offline Roger

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 676

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #10 on: Jun 02, 2003, 08:12:35 PM »
I need to tune my fiddle at least once a day, even more if going from a colder to a warmer room. If I had to rely on the pegs alone I'd never have time to actually play the thing. It's very difficult to tune steel strings without the fine tuners, even top classical violinists who use gut G, D and A strings use one on their steel E strings.

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #11 on: Jun 02, 2003, 09:25:28 PM »
Ok, I'll add this, then I'll shaddup.  ;D

I think that the cool peg tuners are here:

http://www.pegheads.com/

But I can't get the site to load up!  :'( I see no other site with them. I've seen them somewhere? Where was it??

Also, I found this neat thread here on rec.music makers.bowed strings:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=B6128D13.7EF3%25PeteSchug%40att.net&rnum=12&prev=/groups%3Fnum%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26q%3Dfiddle%2Bviolin%2B%2522fine%2Btuner%2522%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch

Here's a snip of it:

While I agree with Werner (and Peter Schug's elaboration) comment that all of these things affect the sound of a violin (that why my instruments only has tuner  on E), I think we need to observe that many of these effects are observable only on better instruments and ...better violinists.
A beginning student with 4 tuners on the tail piece may not notice a
lick of difference on his lower end instrument. Such instruments may
have so many other detraction that removing the fine tuners would yield no perceivable improvements.


(It was called Broken G-string if that URL is no good)

I imagine that his advise is 100% on track.  ;) ;D

Jack

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #12 on: Jun 02, 2003, 10:29:13 PM »
The furs flying here!

I'll add something from a luthiers point as well as a player.

1/ With steel strings (or some modern composites such as Zyex) fine tuners are a good idea as only a little movement is needed to tune and these strings only shift slightly after they're played in.

2/ With gut and nylon etc cored you can do either - I find however its easier and quicker to tune with pegs (if they're in good condition and you tune 'on the shoulder' - which good pegs should allow you to do). The exception is a steel E which is common except for pure gut string sets. The reason is that fine tuners are a) not coarse enough and b) nylon, and especially gut, strings have a 'hysteresis' which makes tuners less suited for these strings.

3/ If you're using 4 tuners then the best idea is to use an integrated tail-piece. This is because these tuners are a) lighter than separate tuners on a traditional tail-piece, b) require no occasional maintainance to tighten them up and c) don't rattle. I'd say 90% of the tuners I see are loose and thus a source of rattles (however slight) and lack of resonance.

4/ There is a theory that the string length behind the bridge contributes to the sound in no small way - it makes sense to me. This string length and tailpiece can be 'tuned' to best effect by adjusting the string length and tailpiece weight. The new Wittner tailpiece has a screw at the tailon end to allow the player/luthier to stretch/slacken all the strings at once - making this process somewhat easier than the old way of cutting the tailon by trial and error.

5/ Having four tuners looks messy and often leads (over time) to scratches in the varnish underneath the tailpiece as players just let the metalwork sit on the top while they're changing strings. Moreover some tuners, especially if the bridge is low, will gouge into the top at their greatest depression. Its much better (and generally cheaper) to use an integrated tailpiece - the sound is better and there's less risk of damage.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #13 on: Jun 02, 2003, 10:29:50 PM »
Thanx Jack for looking all that up.  You know I saw those pegs in Strings magazine in an add and have yet to get to my local shop to see if they could get them.  I can't get that site to load either I bet I can get the address for them from Strings magazine I'll look tonite and post it if I find it.

Offline spelare

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #14 on: Jun 02, 2003, 11:29:03 PM »
Here's some links to the tailpieces with built-in tuners.  I'm sure most folks have seen them, but I think they're the best solution if you want/need fine tuners on all strings.  According to what I've read, they are better than the add-on tuners because they keep the "after-length" (distance behind the bridge to the actual string end) the proper length, and this can have an effect on the sound.  Anyway:

Wittner metal
Wittner "ultralight"

(I'm not pushing the site that sells them - they just have decent pictures.)

Offline Svento

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,889

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #15 on: Jun 03, 2003, 12:44:50 AM »
I have machine heads. They weigh about as much as the rest of the violin, but I'm willing to take that. "Man vänjer sig" (You get used)

Offline Fidel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #16 on: Jun 03, 2003, 12:50:50 AM »
looks like most of your pros use 1 tuner, thats why I've been wanted to get rid of, but God I'd hate to tune without em'.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #17 on: Jun 03, 2003, 04:28:53 AM »
Well I found those tuners online they are at www.knilling.com however I didn't see how to buy the dang things and they didn't mention were one could go to find them???? so let me know if anyone else has any more luck.

Rob

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #18 on: Jun 03, 2003, 02:00:15 PM »
Welp, FWIW, I did do an experiment last night. I didn't remove the fine tuners (thats so much trouble, and I'm afraid to break a string or have a sound post fall), but I did do this.

On both fiddles, I took my metal mute and first put it on the bridge, and it did mute it pretty well. I took it off and played it again with no mute, then I put in on the end of the string right where the fine tuners are, about 2" down from the bridge. I played again and again with it off and on and was not able to hear any difference in tone or volume. Now, I'm not a viruoso, or anything, and my fiddles are not so very valuable. I think ones worth about $600-800 and the other about $1000 to 1200. Either I have a tin ear, or these fiddles are low grade (or both), but to my ear, theres no harm in adding more weight here. I realise that the string is about 1/4" shorter, and I'd think that that can be made up in shortening the end of the tailpice or replacing it with an all in one type. I forget the ratio now, but it was something like 6:1? If you have a string thats so long from the nut to the bridge, you need it have it be 1/6th of that below the bridge?

When I did the search yesterday on geared pegs, I saw 100s of sites that list "4 fine tuners in the tailpiece". There's no denying that if it is a mistake, its being made on a grand scale. (But then the string hieght is prolly also set too high on many of these too, I bet) Diff'rt stroke for diff'rt folks!  ;) :hungo: :silly1:

While I'd never add or remove anything on my filddles just for looks or a whim, these fine tuners make it a lot more user friendly, and the cost to me is immeasurable. I'd take em off today if I thought it was hurting the tone or volume and wasn't doing anything important. I'd think that moving the sound post around would be more dramatic, but maybe not. If I ever get a really valuable fiddle, I'd have to consider not having em.

Jack

Offline Pipers Wine Fiddler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #19 on: Jun 03, 2003, 02:43:17 PM »
Hi friends,

I like to use fine-tuners on all my strings, it makes life so much easier and additionally I like to experiment with different strings, including steel strings. For those a fine-tuner is a must. My favorite combination in the moment is a viola C Thomastik Dominant (Perlon) and G-D-A-E strings are Prim (steel) on my 5-string. I almost do not need to use the pegs for tuning because the fine tuners cover the entire range I need.

Glad to hear from the tests that it seems not to make a big difference in sound if you play with or without fine tuners.

Regards

Holger

Offline spelare

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #20 on: Jun 03, 2003, 02:51:12 PM »
Well I found those tuners online they are at www.knilling.com however I didn't see how to buy the dang things and they didn't mention were one could go to find them???? so let me know if anyone else has any more luck.
I only saw the "planetary" pegs for cellos at the Knilling site.  Here are some others:
Schaller
Champion pegs (these look like banjo tuners, to me - Elderly has them, too)

These require modifying the pegholes, so there's no cheap way to reverse the procedure.  That's why I like the Wittner style tailpiece.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #21 on: Jun 04, 2003, 06:01:36 AM »
Ya the only dang pegs for sale on that website are the cello ones.  It was interesting to here about the experiment Jack did.  Maybe its just me or maybe my fiddle is particularly sensitive the only difference I could hear on mine with the fine tuners on mine was in the G string and normally only when it was played open or the C.  If it sounds fine to you play it that way I guess as long as that fiddle is making music right?  Its like you said too Jack there are so many other things on a fiddle that are supposed to be just so I guess if you get enough of them right one wrong won't hurt.

Rob

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #22 on: Jun 04, 2003, 07:26:34 AM »
While I'd never add or remove anything on my filddles just for looks or a whim, these fine tuners make it a lot more user friendly, and the cost to me is immeasurable. I'd take em off today if I thought it was hurting the tone or volume and wasn't doing anything important. I'd think that moving the sound post around would be more dramatic, but maybe not. If I ever get a really valuable fiddle, I'd have to consider not having em.

The soundpost does make a much, much bigger contribution to the sound - its crucial in fact and even slight changes in position due to changes in environmental conditions and even playing can make an instrument sound totally different.

That said the tailpiece does matter. For example we sell a range of cheap student violins for between £70 and £160 that have Wittner-type tail-pieces. These are cheap copies and there is a sound difference if they are replaced by better quality ones - the biggest difference being with wood. Its most noticeable on the cellos.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #23 on: Jun 04, 2003, 04:38:31 PM »
Thanx Bob for giving us an informed answer on this matter.  Since you mentioned it I often hear about how crucial the soundpost is I treat my fiddle nicely does doing everything right (i.e. proper temp string changes humidity.....) make it less likely for your soundpost to fall or is it just a random occrrence?  How often do deal with fallen or moved soundposts?

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #24 on: Jun 04, 2003, 11:18:16 PM »
Thanx Bob for giving us an informed answer on this matter.  Since you mentioned it I often hear about how crucial the soundpost is I treat my fiddle nicely does doing everything right (i.e. proper temp string changes humidity.....) make it less likely for your soundpost to fall or is it just a random occrrence?  How often do deal with fallen or moved soundposts?

The soundpost is most likely to fall if all the strings are taken off at once - rather than replacing one by one always keeping the tension up. Some pro players get their soundposts replaced twice a year - for changes in humidity and temp - so they have a summer and winter post in their case - rather like putting in lighter engine oil in a car for winter! They move frequently - unless they're too tight - which can mean a soundpost crack in either the belly or back. They should be kept in place by the string tension - but not so loose it falls over when that tension is removed. You can minimise changes by using a hygrometer and increasing the dampness in winter by a dampit device in the case.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #25 on: Jun 04, 2003, 11:56:12 PM »
Thanx for the answer Bob.  I did a little more research on those fine tuning pegs the only ones available are the cello pegs for now.  You can get the violin pegs by buying a knilling violin but the company plans to make just the pegs available soon at about $100 US.  They need to professionally installed my shop says $75 for the install and once installed it would take about $180 to reverse the process as they need to be glued in.

Rob

Offline giannaviolins

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,110

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Mobile User Windows User
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #26 on: Jun 05, 2003, 12:04:19 AM »
Seems as if feelings run high on this one.  No doubt at all that adding excess mass to a tailpiece has a distinct and not good influence on sensitive violins.  This is one of the fastest tuneups we do.  Even with a nice wood tailpiece with a single fine tuner we sometimes find improvement by tuning it just a little by removing some wood.  Very sensitive.  We work with this stuff all the time.  The jump in responsiveness and warmth from removing a "heavy metal" setup is often quite remarkable.

That said, some violins (mainly factory ones) don't care.  And some violinists can't seem to hear what appears as an obvious difference to us.

I like 4 FT on steel strings, but I use either a metal tailpiece or a fancy Pusch (?) wood with the built in tuners.  Those sometimes take lightening to work right.  At the moment I'm running violin 2003-1 with heavy Helicores, 1 FT.  I don't seem to notice any problems tuning.  Of course, it has new and well-fitted pegs of high quality.  Some pegs give me fits.

Steve

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #27 on: Jun 05, 2003, 02:04:04 AM »

That said, some violins (mainly factory ones) don't care.  And some violinists can't seem to hear what appears as an obvious difference to us.

The sound of a violin only really seems to 'mature' at about 3 feet distance and its often difficult for a player to make a judgement. I've often noticed that differences in sound from tweaking are more apparent at some distance removed.

And as Steve indicates, good pegs can tune steel strings. I'm surprised how often with the E string I can get the right pitch quickly using just a peg.

Offline dalebygod

  • Worlds Greatest Friend To All
  • Fiddle Hell Organiser
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,741
  • Gender: Male
  • Hush! I'm thinking about georgie.
    • old'n in the way

  • Total Badges: 26
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #28 on: Jun 06, 2003, 05:21:14 AM »
I play with four tuners too. I can see no difference in the tone, and I play in a recording studio everyday. I've tried both. No difference. But I do believe a fiddle settles in after a certain time, and using the keys to tune to much don't do a fiddle much good. But with the new richer strings, we might just be over looking the unsettling part of it. I do know, that if I set a sound post and play it for a few months, and move it just a bit, then reset it to the same place, the fiddle becomes a bit unsettled for awhile.
I do play with a string mute on a few songs just for a difference song on a certain song, but in most cases, I play with the mute pushed back. But this is just my opinion.. Good luck!
Maybe we should remember that yrs ago they played on gut strings.
got a minute? check this out!
www.fiddlehell.com

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #29 on: Jun 06, 2003, 02:16:01 PM »
Well, I may of gone overboard on a reply in this thread. Rob, I hope you don't think I was making fun of you or anything, sorry if I made you mad, didn't mean to.  :saint: :)

I guess I came off looking kinda stupid here, but if you re-read the quote from the rec.music.strings thing I think that sums it up all very well. Here, I'll repost it here:

While I agree with Werner (and Peter Schug's elaboration) comment that all of these things affect the sound of a violin (that why my instruments only has tuner  on E), I think we need to observe that many of these effects are observable only on better instruments and ...better violinists.
A beginning student with 4 tuners on the tail piece may not notice a
lick of difference on his lower end instrument. Such instruments may
have so many other detraction that removing the fine tuners would yield no perceivable improvements.


Thats the whole issue of tuners right there. SOME of us are not able to hear the difference (I like the 3 foot rule, makes sense to me) and SOME fiddles will not be helped by all the tailpiece lightening you can do. So, assuming that you have a high level instrument, you should heed the advice and take all the tuners off, or just leave the E. I'd reconsider tho, if you had a lower level instrument. While I recognise the fact, I think that me and my fiddle are exempt, and removing them will only create frustration due to having only pegs to work with to tune it and no benefit in sound or tone.

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #30 on: Jun 06, 2003, 02:46:20 PM »
The moral of the story?

Well I have to admit that I have never tried a tailpiece with less than four (integral) fine adjusters on my current violin. Perhaps using a wooden tailpiece without the adjusters would make a difference to the tone, but...

Since I love the tone it makes presently there is no way I would ever consider doing anything to change it!! [Especially not removing fine adjusters, which would make my life harder]

And... for the 'record' (excuse the pun) - I do a lot of recording. Sometimes "close mic'd", some not - on Wed evening I was recording some string parts in a good commerical studio here in Manchester, using an AKG C414 about a metre away in a relatively dry room. I was very pleased with all aspects of the tone, listening back to the unaffected recording through a really good set of studio monitors.

Tom

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #31 on: Jun 06, 2003, 05:48:28 PM »
No hard feelings here Jack.  There are few things I like better than a heated debate that's why I started the subject I bet there was quite a few people out there that didn't even know this was an issue.  Now they have access to all kinds of opinions this forum is deffinately the most valuable resource I have found on the web.  I agree that on low end violins pretty much the only thing you can do to improve the tone is replace it but if they weren't available I would never have even started fiddling as there is no way I would spend over $1000 for something I couldn't even play.  My first violin cost me $60 new from a wholesaler and it was barely possible to get tension on the strings to hold so I could use the fine tuners that were built into the tail piece my current fiddle has pegs that turn so easily it seems like a sin to have all that metal on thetailpiece.
      On another front I'm not sure who said it but it confuses me how using properly fit pegs that turn easily could damage a violin.  I can tune mine while its under my chin.  It seems that if turning my pegs was exerting excessive force on my fiddle it would pop out from under my chin.  I would be interested to know how the person that said tuning with the pegs can ruin a fiddle came to conclusion.  Was it an assumption or is there actually somesort of evidence to support this.  I know a lot of people who put horrible things like rosin and chalk and all manner of substances on their pegs to keep them from slipping doing this can deffinately ruin the peg box anbd make it nearly impossible to tune with the pegs.  Ok thats enough for now.

Sorry so long

Rob

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #32 on: Jun 06, 2003, 08:23:56 PM »
     On another front I'm not sure who said it but it confuses me how using properly fit pegs that turn easily could damage a violin.  I can tune mine while its under my chin.  It seems that if turning my pegs was exerting excessive force on my fiddle it would pop out from under my chin.  I would be interested to know how the person that said tuning with the pegs can ruin a fiddle came to conclusion.  Was it an assumption or is there actually somesort of evidence to support this.  I know a lot of people who put horrible things like rosin and chalk and all manner of substances on their pegs to keep them from slipping doing this can deffinately ruin the peg box anbd make it nearly impossible to tune with the pegs.  Ok thats enough for now.

This is complete b******s - as you say. If you have a valuable violin you might want to use box for pegs as its softer than the maple peg box. Ebony is harder and over time elongates peg holes - but they can be expertly rebushed.

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #33 on: Jun 06, 2003, 10:20:06 PM »
Thanx for saying that Bob.  I just got off the phone with a luthier and his feeling was if your pegs are not turning easily or need to be pushed in to the peg box with extreme force there is something wrong.  He also said that over time the pegs can become oval causing them to be difficult to turn or to easy to turn.  There should be no difficulties tuning a violin with properly fitted pegs is his feeling.  If your pegs are difficult to use he suggested having them fitted properly which should cost about $75 assuming the pegs dont need to be replaced.  He also said even products that are marketed for pegs like peg drops and the like create numerous problems as they increase the friction coeffecient of the peg quickly rendering them useless.  If your pegs are slipping or hard to use $75 to make them work is pretty good not quite as cheap as fine tuners but it deffinately won't affect the sound of the violin.

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #34 on: Jun 06, 2003, 10:43:08 PM »
Thanx for saying that Bob.  I just got off the phone with a luthier and his feeling was if your pegs are not turning easily or need to be pushed in to the peg box with extreme force there is something wrong.  He also said that over time the pegs can become oval causing them to be difficult to turn or to easy to turn.  There should be no difficulties tuning a violin with properly fitted pegs is his feeling.  If your pegs are difficult to use he suggested having them fitted properly which should cost about $75 assuming the pegs dont need to be replaced.  He also said even products that are marketed for pegs like peg drops and the like create numerous problems as they increase the friction coeffecient of the peg quickly rendering them useless.  If your pegs are slipping or hard to use $75 to make them work is pretty good not quite as cheap as fine tuners but it deffinately won't affect the sound of the violin.

I'd agree entirely. By the time most people take their violin in with peg problems its generally too late to resusitate them though and new ones are needed. I charge £60 for 4 + the cost of the pegs (customers choice of) so that $75 seems reasonable. And yes the use of peg paste indicates a problem. I was always taught to make new pegs lock completely and then make them slip with graphite and various other compounds. I assume this was the Hill method and it works. Done properly and with good wood they can last for 20 odd years before needing attention. My main violin had its pegs fitted about 25 years ago and I can still tune it whilst playing and faster than the adjusters which I added to use Helicores. I'm thinking of going back to gut (Eudoxa's) though in which case I'll ditch the Wittner tail-piece and fit a rosewood tailpiece with possibly a tuner for the E. I'm actually looking forward to it!

Offline Tork____

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5

  • Total Badges: 18
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 4 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #35 on: Jun 08, 2003, 05:33:48 PM »
I have to agree with having as few fine tuners as possible. If you have a well bushed peg box or pegs custom fitted specifically to your violin tuning is really quite nippy. I use only one tuner on the E, and a loop E-string to increase the length of resonant string. I can hear the difference when you take the tuners off; the violin sounds more alive and articulate. Luvit!

Having said that you probably don't want to be fadging around with pegs on stage... I play solo and chamber music so i like my violin sounding as projective as possible!
I'd imagine my viewpoint would change if i were playing with a band, or other styles of music.

-Adrian

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #36 on: Jun 08, 2003, 11:20:51 PM »
Good point there!

[Although I'm still adamant I can tune faster than anyone use pegs, there's a challenge!  :o]

Tom

Offline Fiddlebuddy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #37 on: Jun 09, 2003, 05:31:34 AM »
Wow, it's almost as bad as those "Taste Great - Less Filling"  Beer ads some years back!! :smile2:

I had 4 tuners on my student violin years back.  Then I read somewhere that there great on steel strings, but not nylon or synthetic.  So I took them off, all accept the E.

WOW!!  It made a difference to my $400 student model.  It came more alive, and projected better.

Now, on my newest violin, I have only the one.  I have learned to use the pegs to tune, and it's not a problem since I've been doing it for years.  I tune "under the chin", and with the bow.  Probably a new thread here, but I think that the tuning is different Arco instead of Pizzicato.  (Arco = Bow.  Pizzicato = plucking)

I use Dominants on the A, D, and G.  I use a loop Gold Label Pirastro on the E.

If I has Steel, heck yea, give me all 4.  

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #38 on: Jun 09, 2003, 08:26:36 AM »
You know fiddlebuddy I was noticing that tonite as I was tuning with my pegs it has to do with how your bowing i guess but deffinately a few cents differnce between the two as far as I can see

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #39 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:16:53 PM »
I never used to think there was much of a difference between
tuning arco or pizz but I have found it more recently - and I think it is much worse with old strings. The D and G I have on at the moment are quite old now (I don't know how long they've been on for but they need changing) and although they sound good and tuning is fine bowed, there seems to be a big dicrepancy between bowing and plucking the strings.

If anyone out there (perhaps Bob?) who knows about physics (Michael?) and violins could explain this I'd be very grateful...

...and while they're at it!!

Why are adjusters meant to be good for steel strings but not nylon??

Tom  8)

Offline madfiddler

  • Forum Owner
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,562
  • Gender: Male
  • Flit Kills Moths
    • madfiddler - Electric Violinist

  • Total Badges: 44
    Badges: (View All)
    Mobile User Level 7 5000 Posts
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #40 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:25:17 PM »
Of course, tuners can also be pretty slow.... if you forget to reset them once in a while  :P
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra membership privileges.

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #41 on: Jun 09, 2003, 01:26:26 PM »
Very true  :P

Tom

Offline simon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,248

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Search Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #42 on: Jun 09, 2003, 03:49:38 PM »
I only have the fine tuner on my E string and I've never had any problem tuning with pegs. Correction, occasionally I have a day where I just can't get the damn in tune at all. I don't know if it's down to me or to the fiddle, or to an inauspicious planetary alignment, but on days like that when I just can't hear a perfect fifth, I don't think fine tuners would make much difference to me.

According to the packet my Helicores come in, they are designed specifically for use with fine tuners (the built-in type I think). Does that mean that in fact I'm not getting the best sound out of them?

Offline Pipers Wine Fiddler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #43 on: Jun 09, 2003, 04:50:54 PM »
Hi Tom,

Why are adjusters meant to be good for steel strings but not nylon??

... I don't think they will harm nylon strings. But for steel they are much more convenient than tuning with the pegs (some people even say that they are essential to tune steel strings) simply because steel strings need much less change in tension to influence the pitch. So it is difficult to tune a steel string because the minimum amount of turn that you can control with a peg is not small enough to really get the string in tune. With a fine tuner you can tune a steel strings several notes up and down without even touching the peg. With a nylon tring, a fine tuner will do much less change in pitch (see how I use my new learned word pitch?  ;).

Regards

Holger

Offline WWcringe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #44 on: Jun 09, 2003, 09:54:20 PM »
Many thanks Holger, I should have known that, but didn't.

Tom

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #45 on: Jun 09, 2003, 10:14:58 PM »
Hi Tom,... I don't think they will harm nylon strings.
Very well put Holger.

Adjusters won't harm synthetic or gut cored strings but  as these are thicker they are often difficult to fit into the slot of standard adjusters. It is possible to buy adjusters for these strings.

Another more technical reason is that syntethic or gut strings possess a kind of hysteresis which makes tuning more difficult with adjusters. Simply put they stretch more than steel - adjusters tune in a linear fashion and this does not suit these strings. Pegs are better suited for this reason - for some reason the friction enables the player to judge very precisely how far to turn to the right note with no 'overshoot'. You need good pegs for this though. I've said it before (and doubtless I'll say it again!  :) ) that the acid test for a well set-up violin are the pegs. If its a new violin, or its a new set of pegs, and you can't tune on the shoulder with no hint of sticking - change your luthier!

Offline fiddleblu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
  • Use the Bow Luke

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #46 on: Jun 17, 2003, 02:39:11 AM »
I have machine heads. They weigh about as much as the rest of the violin, but I'm willing to take that. "Man vänjer sig" (You get used)

I'll second that! I hated them at first but they were original to my 'pioneer' fiddle so I just left them there in the name of authenticity. And, oh, were they heavy!

I love them now that I'm used to them. I haven't had to tune my fiddle one little bit in two months :smile2:

Offline japo heather

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #47 on: Jun 24, 2003, 09:42:20 AM »
i was doing a physics paper on violins and if i was at home wiht my own computer etc i would hook my fiddle up to a program i have that records sound waves. i would test with and without fine tuners and see if the shape of the waves differs - but im 9hrs or soemthing from home so i cant do that! would be an interesting thing to do but! i use 4 myself but thats just because my fiddle came with 4 and i always have used 4. i also have issues with my pegs! interesting reading mind u!

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #48 on: Jun 24, 2003, 03:53:04 PM »
i was doing a physics paper on violins and if i was at home wiht my own computer etc i would hook my fiddle up to a program i have that records sound waves. i would test with and without fine tuners and see if the shape of the waves differs - but im 9hrs or soemthing from home so i cant do that! would be an interesting thing to do but! i use 4 myself but thats just because my fiddle came with 4 and i always have used 4. i also have issues with my pegs! interesting reading mind u!
I'd be interested in the results of this study, but SHAPE of the wave is not what I want to hear about , its the SIZE. Magnatude should be something to look at. (Maybe you mean that when you mean shape?) Magatude is equal to volume. I hope that theres a set way to bow the string so that its exactally the same both times.

Jack

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #49 on: Jun 24, 2003, 10:22:20 PM »
I think size and shape will be different as the fine tuners do alter the tone as well as the volume just a hypothesis based upon what my ears and luthier tell me.

Offline Graham Clark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,477

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Search
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #50 on: Jun 24, 2003, 11:11:53 PM »
I use an old metal Thomastik four tuner tailpiece, set to the right distance from the bridge, with Corelli Alliance strings, though I always used to use Dominant, and have tried Zyex for a while.

I notice no bad effect on the tone, but plenty of good effect on my speed and accuracy of tuning while on stage.

gc

Offline japo heather

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #51 on: Jun 25, 2003, 01:20:09 PM »
yep, by shape i ment everything about the sound waves. when i was working with the program i practiced alot with trying to get constant waves, same shapes etc, its difficult. i wonder if a difference would be big enough to see from plucking the string? wish i was home to check it out!
also, i played today and i heard that rattle that i hear a bit when im playing - i never knew wat it was, thought maybe something to do with the bow - is my tuners! its actually my E-tuner making the rattle, any suggestions on how to reduce/stop the rattle?

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #52 on: Jun 29, 2003, 07:23:56 PM »
If its like mine and it goes through the tailpiece then all you do is tighten the round nut on top untill it is fairly snug.  Its a good Idea to put a finger underneath the tailpiece to keep the little damn from moving about as you tighten it

Offline japo heather

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #53 on: Jun 30, 2003, 07:37:56 AM »
cheers  :)

WELL people! i have taken the plunge!  :o i just put a nice new set of tonicas on my fiddle and whilst doing so i removed 3 tuners, leaving only the E tuner!  :happy: im very happy with the increase in volume and better tone but is that just the new strings  :-\ nether the less i will endeavour to learn to tune faster using the pegs (after i whipe the cobwebs off them  ;)) so look out world! im now a one tuner girl!!  ;D

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #54 on: Jun 30, 2003, 04:31:31 PM »
Good for you heather doesn't take long to get used to and once those strings stretch it gets easier

Offline natnot

  • Cupboard Dweller
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,496
  • Gender: Female
  • Mini Bree!
    • Natnot's homepage

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Linux User Mobile User
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #55 on: Jul 12, 2003, 11:58:42 AM »
I play with just the one, Hill-style tuner for the E (since I use a metal E). However, most of the people I know seem to use 4. I used to use a Wittner tailpiece on my old violin, but it was cheap and the pegs didn't work particularly well.  :)

To me, it looks cumbersome to have 4 of the large type tuners on a wooden tailpiece... so I go with the Hill style mini tuner for aesthetic effect if nothing else!

Offline kwyjibrago

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Female

  • Total Badges: 19
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 4 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #56 on: Jul 12, 2003, 12:45:12 PM »
i play with 3 tuners. yes, 3.  once i got gut strings i only played with one, but about a year ago, my pegs started sticking really bad and continue to due so (even with the use of compound) so i put the other 3 back on- the last time i changed strings i took my g tuner off because it wouldn't turn (the grooves got misaligned or something). now i never tune my g unless its way out because the peg doesn't turn. i just use the "press & pluck" method to make fine adjustments, so there is a practical reason for tuners on problem instruments... otherwise i'd prefer without

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #57 on: Oct 19, 2003, 07:41:41 PM »
Thought i would move this too the top as it has been asked about recently

Offline Elida trading

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 205

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Windows User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #58 on: Oct 20, 2003, 12:07:41 PM »
The first thing my "best teacher ever" made me do when I first went to her for lessons (at about Grade 6 standard) was to make me take the adjusters off (all four of them, I play viola) and put Pirastro Eudoxa strings on.  I struggled for some time because I was playing on a Poller and despite the local repair shop doing something to the pegs they were simply never good enough, it was embarrasing always being the last one to be in tune.  Once i got my Schnabl I had no further tuning problems at all.

I'm sure I notice a big difference in sound sometimes when we put four adjusters on for a customer, but not always.  Not with Dominants, but always with the type of strings where the winding, if you have four adjusters, comes very close up to the bridge.  Then i end up putting on a metal tailpiece instead which does seem to improve things.

Liz

Offline rcc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 706

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #59 on: Oct 20, 2003, 09:12:05 PM »
From what I gather, the two things that most people agree matter are afterlength (length of string that vibrates between bridge and tailpiece) and tailpiece mass.  People argue about wood vs. plastic vs. metal but there doesn't seem to be anything conclusive there yet.

The 4 FT "heavy metal" setup adds lots of mass which probably winds up on the heavy side of optimal for most instruments and some of the commonly used FTs like the Wittners can vary the afterlength quite a bit.

For the best tone, I think it's hard to beat a tailpiece whose mass has been matched to what the violin likes with the afterlength set up properly and an FT on the E so you can tune the E without going insane.

If I were going to with FT's, in general I think I'd go with the lightest tailpiece I could find with integrated FTs on the theory that while you can add mass to plastic/metal, taking mass away is a pain and the afterlength is going to vary less on a tailpiece FT that it will on a standalone Wittner-style FT.

- Ray

Offline Fixnfiddle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • Use the Bow, Luke.

  • Total Badges: 19
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #60 on: Oct 30, 2003, 11:53:55 PM »
The correct location for the [PEGHED] tuners you were looking for is: < http://www.pegheds.com >.  

You were very close, just drop the 'a' in 'heads'.  I don't have them, but they sure look like a good idea.  I'd have to talk to someone who has them first.
Bob

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #61 on: Oct 31, 2003, 02:12:38 PM »
The correct location for the [PEGHED] tuners you were looking for is: < http://www.pegheds.com >.  

You were very close, just drop the 'a' in 'heads'.  I don't have them, but they sure look like a good idea.  I'd have to talk to someone who has them first.
Thanks for that correction! Wow! Neat! I'll have to check this out. These are a friction type, but they look really good to me. Looks like a really interesting item. Thanks again!

Jack

Offline simon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,248

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Search Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #62 on: Oct 31, 2003, 02:32:20 PM »
They do look worth investigating. I'd be interested to hear more if anyone has tried them out or plans to. I wonder how heavy they are, and if they make any difference to the tone of a fiddle. They certainly look nicer than guitar style machine heads. I'm not convinced they'd give a huge advantage over well fitted normal pegs, but if I'm wrong it won't be the first time. ;)

Offline Martin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 578

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #63 on: Nov 06, 2003, 03:54:54 PM »
http://www.harmonie.net/us/catalogue/a-cordier.html

Anyone using these wooden tailpieces with inbuilt finetuners? They seem like a reasonable compromise.

Offline Bob

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Super Combination Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #64 on: Nov 06, 2003, 05:09:27 PM »
http://www.harmonie.net/us/catalogue/a-cordier.html

Anyone using these wooden tailpieces with inbuilt finetuners? They seem like a reasonable compromise.

I try and fit these Pusch tailpieces whenever possible in place of cheap integrated ones and players who like 'heavy metal' . Merely changing from a Wittner integrated tailpiece to one of these can make a huge difference in sound. They're not cheap however.

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2004, 07:08:11 PM »
BUMP!

Offline Martin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 578

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #66 on: Jun 16, 2004, 04:34:47 PM »
I try and fit these Pusch tailpieces whenever possible in place of cheap integrated ones and players who like 'heavy metal' . Merely changing from a Wittner integrated tailpiece to one of these can make a huge difference in sound. They're not cheap however.

Bob, how much?

I started with 4 fine tuners added onto a wooden Hill tailpiece, and a couple of months back changed to a Wittner, partly just because all the extra metal just looks a bit ugly. The Wittner was a little easier to turn the screws on, and the fiddle is now louder. I think I need to shorten the tailgut more than I did too.


All this talk of tuning begs the question, what are you tuning to?

I generally tune to a handheld electronic Qwik-Tune tuner, and then adjust a little for my ear. I saw the fancy tuners at Buxton that clip directly onto the scroll, and got tuner-envy. Sometimes I just use a tuning fork. I always then bow the strings in pairs to check, and pretend I can hear perfect fifths. I think the days Simon's ears aren't working are the days mine are. Sometimes I have to tune to a melodeon who is woefully sharp, and then it has to be by ear.

So do you tune electronically, or tune one string & then tune to it by bowing in pairs, or what?



Offline chifiddler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 266

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #67 on: Jun 20, 2004, 02:57:13 AM »
I tune in sessions with an Intellitouch tuner, I can just pluck the strings to check them. I sometimes tune in fifths if it is quiet enough.   I play lots of times with a piper who has a concert pitch set in D that tends to run a bit sharp if it is warm out. He also has a B set of pipes that is dead on in tune, I tune my fiddle one and 1/2 tones down to play with him.

Offline mikehelms

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Gender: Male
    • Mike's Homepage

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #68 on: Jun 20, 2004, 02:39:00 PM »
So do you tune electronically, or tune one string & then tune to it by bowing in pairs, or what?

I have a Boss TU-12 chromatic tuner that I use for all my instruments (violin, guitar, clarinet).  I highly recommend this as a great "all purpose" tuner because it has an old-fashoned meter style indicator, instead of the lights.  I find the meter much less ambiguous.

Here is the ritual I go through with the fiddle to (hopefully) help it and my ears.

My cheap student fiddle has a fine tuner on the E string.  Most of the time I try to tune with the pegs (if it was good enough for Amati and Stradivari, it's good enough for me), and I'll start the good old fashoned way with a tuning fork on the A string.  From there I'll bow in pairs and try to "hear" the fifths.

Once it sounds like it's in tune, I'll do a quick bow-check with the chromatic tuner to see how far I'm off.  I'll re-tune a string if it's off by more than 4 hertz, which is (thankfully) fairly rare.

On the topic of tuning with pegs: When I bought my fiddle the pegs were sticky to the point of almost being totally unusable.  I removed them (one at a time, to keep tension on the bridge at all times) and worked both the peghole and the peg with a soft pencil.  Now they are as smooth as butter, and I have yet to have one slip.  I have left the fine tuner on the E string simply because I'm too lazy to remove it, but I'll probably remove it the next time I replace the E string.  All accounts I have read indicate that it won't hurt the tone to remove it, and it may possibly help.

This may seem like a dreadfully long approach to tuning, but it's more important to me to "hear" that I'm in tune than it is for me to just do it quickly (and at the complete mercy of the electronic tuner).

-- Mike

Offline Pilgrum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 878

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #69 on: Jun 20, 2004, 05:18:20 PM »
mikehelms
You might want to remember what kind of material the strings were made of in Stradivari's day and what material your E-string is made of.  Might want to rethink you thought about removing the F.T. on the E-string.
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2004, 09:22:36 PM by Pilgrum »

Offline Jack002

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,671

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Windows User Level 5
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #70 on: Jun 22, 2004, 03:46:46 PM »
and worked both the peghole and the peg with a soft pencil.  Now they are as smooth as butter, and I have yet to have one slip

Wow, cool tip, Mike! I'll have to try that!! ;)

Jack

Offline alwyswinn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,100

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Apple User Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #71 on: Jun 23, 2004, 08:50:07 AM »
I second the rethink on that last tuner being removed that little thin piece of metal will be difficult to or impossible to tune without it.  I wonder what a wound e would be like thomastik and pirastro both make one I intend to try one soon......

Offline giannaviolins

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,110

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Mobile User Windows User
Re:How many fine tuners do you play with
« Reply #72 on: Jun 23, 2004, 12:44:36 PM »
I have set up 2 violins without E string fine tuners.  These used the pegheds geared tuning pegs.  Worked great.

 




Get Adobe Flash player


Fiddle and Alternative Strings Forum (c) 2016 Mark Knight /
SONiC FUEL
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal