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Author Topic: To rest or not to rest that is a question  (Read 12783 times)

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Offline Alan Kroeger

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #25 on: Nov 06, 2006, 02:50:41 AM »
Alan, don't be offended, but I think of that minimal Resonans as a scratch-o-matic looking for a target. Hey, if it works for you, that's why they're still selling them.
Yep they do exhibit a high degree of potential for that, I did throw in the mention of the skimpy rubber on the feet. Well I figure they would be fine with due diligence and provided you aren't dancing around a lot, do you ;D
I don't use them anymore, have em in a drawer, but they did function. Now I have the Bonmusica's which are great cause you can dance around and flail your arms & bow around without dropping your instrument. I don't do that but figure I could if I wished too ;D
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Offline PeterG

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #26 on: Nov 06, 2006, 02:08:38 PM »
I use a Kun collapsible, feeling it to be the best. I am willing, however, to concede that there are other paths to shoulder and chin comfort, even though they are not to my taste.

Offline natnot

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #27 on: Nov 06, 2006, 05:56:37 PM »
I just use a cloth thing folded up these days, though I use a Viva on the electric. It's probably more to do with laziness and not wanting to be attaching things every time I get it out of the case (electric stays out on a stand) than comfort. Sometimes I use a Wolf if I'm sitting down to play a lot. My Resonans has been firmly confined to a cupboard since it scratched my viola. >:(

Offline Fairview Fiddler

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #28 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:00:42 PM »
I use a comford that has the long spokes so it grabs four spots on the back. It's rock solid and comfortable but a bit heavy & won't fit into my case. Use a kun for away from the house playing.

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #29 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:12:42 PM »
Link is to the one I use on my Skyinbow elec.  Doesn't feel right for me on the accoustic.  Kinda pricey but found it's very worth it.  Adds just the right amt of comfort without taking up neck space, and the "hooks" are rubber padded so haven't noticed any probs with scratching the finish.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PLAYONAIR-VIOLIN-AND-VIOLA-SHOULDER-REST_W0QQitemZ260048601687QQihZ016QQcategoryZ38106QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Offline sreizes

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #30 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:24:41 PM »
Ease of use (of the violin) is part of why I would like to be able to comfortably play restless.  I would like to be able to take out and put back the violin in it's case for safety with out having to "fiddle" with the shoulder rest.

Offline chrisandcello

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #31 on: Nov 06, 2006, 11:15:59 PM »
I just use a wolf shoulder rest and a 'whatever' chinrest.....sometimes its good to go bareback though..(no rests at all.... and the instrument does appear to sound better without a chinrest clamped to the body).
After messing around with under the ear...and away from the ear playing (trying to evaluate set up tone)...I'm getting quite proficient at playing from the waist...or rather resting the fiddle under the heart....no neck problems at all and as time goes on whatever strange grip I'm using isn't limiting me to 1st position!
The cost of trying all the chin and shoulder rest combos is rather prohibative ;D...probably cheaper to get a vertabrae or two removed! ;D

Offline Alan Kroeger

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #32 on: Nov 06, 2006, 11:46:22 PM »
The cost of trying all the chin and shoulder rest combos is rather prohibative ;D...probably cheaper to get a vertabrae or two removed! ;D
Probably ;D
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Offline Emma

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #33 on: Nov 07, 2006, 04:50:27 PM »
No one else has a Willy Wolf?
I've got two..........I like the pic of the wolf head on it..........that being said, I prefer my Kun.
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Offline Steve_W

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #34 on: Nov 07, 2006, 05:58:17 PM »
I can play restless but don't have as much L.H. freedom as I like when doing so, so usually use a rest.  I used a Kun Original for several years but had a problem with it collapsing while performing, especially on my main fiddle (I have an issue with bearing down with my chin when I'm nervous).  I tried the Knilling Viva, which is similar to the Kun but with rubber feet that wrap around the edge of the fiddle better.  This partially solved the problem but not totally (I still use this rest with my backup fiddle, on which it fits a little better).  Then I found the Kun Voce, which is a lightweight rest with a carbon-fiber body and wider, more stable rubber feet that really grip the edge.  I've never had this one collapse on me in about a year of use.  The only issue I have with it is that it doesn't have as big a height adjustment range as either the Kun Original or the Viva, and it took me a while to get it adjusted to where it was as comfortable as the others.

Offline natnot

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #35 on: Nov 07, 2006, 06:00:43 PM »
No one else has a Willy Wolf?
I've got two..........I like the pic of the wolf head on it..........that being said, I prefer my Kun.


I have a Wolf, with the wolf head on...it says nothing about willy though!

Offline beeswing

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #36 on: Nov 08, 2006, 04:12:56 AM »
The fiddle with the Wolf lives with one of my offspring. Besides the wolf head, pretty sure it says "Willy Wolf Forte Primo" and maybe some other text regarding intellectual property rights to the design. Must be specially made for the US market; we get labels and text everywhere. Why just this morning I saw a Corona beer logo right across the back end of a ... no, that would be off topic. Sorry.
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Offline Natanael

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #37 on: Nov 08, 2006, 06:01:36 AM »
I'm using both shoulder rest and chin rest :) I couldn't play whithout them, but I have no idea if it's a special trademark or something.

Offline sreizes

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #38 on: Nov 13, 2006, 06:02:08 PM »
I've been shifting my Kun around lately to try to get the violin in the position it would be in if I had no rest.

Offline Alan Kroeger

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #39 on: Nov 13, 2006, 10:15:47 PM »
Why just this morning I saw a Corona beer logo right across the back end of a ... no, that would be off topic. Sorry.
Why not this was intended as an rant & anarchy thread ;D
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Offline Steve_W

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #40 on: Nov 14, 2006, 12:18:52 AM »
I've been shifting my Kun around lately to try to get the violin in the position it would be in if I had no rest.

I think this is a good idea; rests like the Kun make it possible to play in all sorts of inefficient positions, and easy to develop bad habits!  Several years ago I worked on learning to play without a shoulder rest and found that without that extra support, in order to keep the violin up the scroll had to shift around to the left further than I'd become accustomed to holding it; and this shift alligned my bow arm properly and made it easier to keep the bow perpendicular to the strings for its whole length!  When I returned to using a rest I did the same thing as you and set it up so that it kept the violin in that position, or close to it.  I think it's an interesting experiment for a violinist to see what it takes to play without a shoulder rest, even if you end up deciding you want to use one.

Offline mickeysmom

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #41 on: Nov 15, 2006, 03:35:37 PM »
I use a Kun collapsible... but agree it can be a pain stowing it with me every time I play out.  Have tried playing without a rest and it does force my left arm to move... interesting.  I'm going to experiment some more and see if what Steve W. says is true for me, too.   It seems like the sound of my violin vibrates thru my shoulder more without the Kun rest on... which is pretty neat.

Offline impromptuandy

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #42 on: Dec 08, 2006, 09:41:22 AM »
I use a wooden KUN, because the plastic one flexes too much and the screw can touch the back of my instrument.

I find a better sound with a shoulder-rest, maybe because they only clamp to the sides of the instrument (which can't resonate). With a pad or without anything I think i deaden the back of the instrument and lose some projection.

Having said that my teacher plays without and projects more than anyone I've ever heard.

Offline Alan Kroeger

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #43 on: Dec 09, 2006, 05:52:12 PM »
Hmm today I got started watching some youtube videos of violinist doing trick playing etc...

This topic on the forum got me started and I decided to take the rest off of my electric (Bridge Instruments Aquila) and I found I was really none the worse for not having it on. Yeah it was a bit uncomfortable, the Aquila isn't designed for this, but my playing wasn't all that impeded for lack of a rest. It's not as if I never tried playing sans rest but it has been a while. I always go back and try different things eventually but I rarely set a schedule as to when. The violin will likely never make me a living so I don't take it all too seriously but I plug along as I enjoy it.
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Offline frodopogo

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #44 on: Dec 09, 2006, 07:13:22 PM »
I mostly play without.
Hey, I'm an old-time style fiddler.
When I put a shoulder rest on, I hear a change
in tone that makes the fiddle sound more
violinny and less fiddley.  I think it cuts sustain and
treble.
Playing without a shoulder rest,
I seem to like a high chinrest better.

I have tried two brands. Resonans and Kun.
The Resonans aren't adjustable, and
so they don't work with a high chinrest.
The Kun came with the last fiddle I purchased.
It was quite comfortable, but still I didn't like
the sound.

I get the idea that a really high quality violin
has volume to spare, and so the hit it takes
from a shoulder rest is proportionally small.

Cheaper fiddles like mine are often not that loud to begin
with, and really don't have enough volume to go
sacrificing some.

However, I am thinking of experimenting with
a shoulder rest, but no chinrest, to see if I like
that better.

Part of my resistance to shoulder rests
is because I'm used to guitar or banjo-
you tune it, then play it.
With fiddle, you have to:

1. Adjust bow hair
2. Rosin bow
3. Tune
4. Install shoulder rest

Not necessarily in that order.
I get impatient when I'm gigging, especially,
and partly because I also use guitar and banjo
at my gigs.  A shoulder rest seems like the proverbial
last straw.

Also, I sold the only case I had (oblong)
that had enough room to allow you to put the
shoulder rest away without folding it.

Of my two remaining cases, one allows a folded
Kun, and the other has no provision for storing
a shoulder rest at all.

Michael

Offline Steve_W

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #45 on: Dec 09, 2006, 07:35:48 PM »
"When I put a shoulder rest on, I hear a change
in tone that makes the fiddle sound more
violinny and less fiddley.  I think it cuts sustain and
treble."

Agreed; I've noticed this as well using Kun-type rests.  However with my fiddle I prefer the tone with the rest to without; it has a bit more treble in its voice than I'd like!  I have noticed that my Kun Voce seems to affect the tone less than some others, possibly because it's light (carbon fiber) and hollow.

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #46 on: Dec 09, 2006, 08:22:20 PM »
There is a difference with my fiddle, I have a Kun rest lying about from my days of trying to find a rest that worked for me and I put it on my fiddle to hear if there is a difference and I think there is. Even recorded a bit with and without it, and in the recording the difference is there as well. Of course there's no accounting for taste, but I like the sound without the rest better. Which is a good thing, because I like playing without it better as well. Of course there is the added difference for me that I play with no chinrest and with the shoulderrest on my chin leaning more on the top of the fiddle. Without rest it's more towards the edge.

Offline madfiddler

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #47 on: Dec 10, 2006, 02:16:46 AM »
I find it VERY difficult to play without a shoulder rest. Part of my problem is my grip is quite strong between shoulder and chin.. and without that grip I find changing positions a real problem.. add to that I find it very uncomfortable.
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Offline Alan Kroeger

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #48 on: Dec 10, 2006, 03:56:33 AM »
For the heck of it I removed the chin rest too, I could get used to it
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Offline fiddlejen

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Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #49 on: Dec 11, 2006, 12:39:47 AM »
I was thinking about this on my way home, after some discussion this weekend about how can I sing & play at the same time.  (Works fine, except if I forget the words then I can't play the notes either...)  And of course, I rarely use my shoulder rest.  And if I do, I push it way up to the corners... I guess, basically, that positions it as if it weren't there...

So anyway, when I've read such a question before, I thought people meant they were too distracted by playing to sing ;;).  But apparently the real objection is, you can't move your mouth to sing??  (Right?)  And I can.  I've never even had a difficulty. 

Here's why:  (warning:  lecture ahead!)

You are not supposed to be using your shoulder and your chin to hold your fiddle!!!!

One end of your fiddle should rest in your hand (no matter what sort of pancaked or non-pancaked position you use!), and the other end should rest -- that's rest, not be-firmly-clamped-in-place -- against (approximately) your collarbone.  If you play sans shoulder-rest, it should make no difference to tone.  It shouldn't deaden the tone at all.  Your fiddle should not be pressing against your shoulder.  Nor against your chin.  Hand, Shoulder, and Collarbone are pivot points & balance points.  Chin & shoulder are balance points steadying points, that, simply by being there, prevent the fiddle from pivoting past the angle you've chosen at any given moment.  Points - balance points - not clamps. 

I suspect that shoulder rests contribute to the bad habits of using shoulder & chin as installation hardware.  If you play without one for any length of time it just becomes too muscularly inefficient to hold on for dear life, so eventually your shoulder neck & chin muscles learn how to balance properly instead.   Just being told to not clamp yourself to your fiddle probably isn't enough.  Those muscles have to learn how to do their balancing act, and they probably can't with that shoulder rest there already holding the fiddle steady.
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