Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Forum Shops

Affiliates



If you've forgotten your password or username, email madfiddler (link on the left of page).

Author Topic: To rest or not to rest that is a question  (Read 13002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
To rest or not to rest that is a question
« on: Nov 05, 2006, 09:31:17 PM »
Alright things got a little far flung and off topic so here you go a rant topic for one and all ;D
One size doesn't fit all and sometimes less (or none) is more. Done it different ways took a liking to these Bonmusica's for a problematic fit instrument that won't work with absolutely nothing. Finding that I liked it I bought another one for an instrument that doesn't require it or even any rest.

I think I may have had a Bonmusica on my shoulder once, but it must not have given me much of an epiphany, I hardly remember.

So did you have an ultra low profile (height wise; no rest or sponge rest being unfeasible) and somewhat narrowed (across the width) electric like a Bridge Aquila that requires either this unit or a modified standard rest like the Madfiddler does it?

Oh yeah I remember you have a Jordan with the built in/custom rest, right?

Oh well if you have a standard measurement instrument almost anything

or even no rest can work

You can even get by with a folded towel or wash cloth (I have done that one)

Okay knock yourselves out...
« Last Edit: Nov 05, 2006, 10:11:05 PM by Alan Kroeger »
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #1 on: Nov 05, 2006, 09:54:32 PM »
It was somebody else's standard acoustic violin, if I remember right. The DW's Jordan has its own bolted-on rest, as you say. The only other non-standard fiddle I have access to is the Carruth cornerless edgeless "vidola" with a 16" body and scale length of a 15.5" viola. The only one that really works well on that is the Comford, cause it doesn't need edges to grab onto.

I don't like to play for more than a minute or two without a shoulder rest. If it comes to that, I roll up a washcloth around the fiddle, or stuff it under my shirt.
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #2 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:01:22 PM »
Quote
stuff it under my shirt.
I am not sure but I think Perlman uses that trick perhaps we should have a thread on rests versus no rest and what instrument needs what rest in a separate topic?

I can separate the off topic replies (like mine here) to a new topic and leave the on topic replies there, if you like? Oh Well split the topic too late
« Last Edit: Nov 05, 2006, 10:12:26 PM by Alan Kroeger »
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #3 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:13:41 PM »
She asked if anyone used a Bonmusica. I used one briefly once, and found it was nice but not necessary. My nominal build allows me a lot of freedom, and so the "nice but not necessary" bit may only apply to yours truly and others in a similar condition.

Not much more to add to a rest / restless thread than that. Someone wants to start such a topic, go ahead on.
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #4 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:16:22 PM »
Not much more to add to a rest / restless thread than that. Someone wants to start such a topic, go ahead on.
Already split and left your previous reply over there :)
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #5 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:19:49 PM »
How do I get the feeling that you've seen more than one shoulder rest "discussion" come and go?

;)
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline martyn

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,036

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Nineth year Anniversary Eighth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #6 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:23:27 PM »
I have two acoustic fiddles. On the one I call my best fiddle I use a Kun type shoulder rest set to it's minimum height. My second fiddle has very high arching compared to my best fiddle, I find that any shoulder rest is too much to get my chin over. I just prefer a thick cloth draped over the chin rest to keep the hard edges from digging into my neck and shoulder.

I've never tried a wash cloth, that sounds like a good idea. It was also suggested to me that a chamois leather was good for this purpose.

Offline concertA

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,901

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #7 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:27:23 PM »
"To rest or not to rest"

Alan, you just had to go and stir up the masses.  This topic is almost as bad as politics or religion.   ;D  You rabble-rouser, you!

Foam pad for me, nicely covered in "symphony black" with black elastic straps to attach it.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #8 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:29:40 PM »
I've never tried a wash cloth, that sounds like a good idea. It was also suggested to me that a chamois leather was good for this purpose.
Hmm yeah chamois would work can't see why not plus it would be softer and possibly easier on the instrument finish...

Quote
General reply not replying to anyone specifically in the following portion
Try it out heck try everything out cause if you don't then you will never know what works for you. Me I am a constant tweaker can't hardly stop making minor adjustments. Sometimes I tweak so much I get to a point that I find I am not being productive ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #9 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:32:59 PM »
"To rest or not to rest"

Alan, you just had to go and stir up the masses.  This topic is almost as bad as politics or religion.   ;D  You rabble-rouser, you!
No not me too rigidly structured to go off topic that easily (no anarchist here) ;D

Quote
Foam pad for me, nicely covered in "symphony black" with black elastic straps to attach it.
Should be fine, can't see why not, just add to it till the height is where you want it or subtract if need be
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline madmat

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,270
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Eighth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #10 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:37:54 PM »
On the one I call my best fiddle I use a Kun type shoulder rest set to it's minimum height...
Yes, but what *kind* of Kun? The plastic or wood, collapsible or non-? ;)

I've had luck with the collapsible plastic ones, low at the shoulder but high at the collarbone.
Not your mama, or Yo-yo Ma!

Offline martyn

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,036

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Nineth year Anniversary Eighth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #11 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:41:30 PM »
Quote
Foam pad for me, nicely covered in "symphony black" with black elastic straps to attach it.

When I bought my best fiddle I went over budget and could not afford a decent shoulder rest  ::) so I borrowed one of those pads that secure with rubber bands. I was very alarmed to find that after only a couple of weeks the bands were leaving marks on the back of the fiddle. Even now, years later, I can see the marks where the bands used to rub.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #12 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »
How do I get the feeling that you've seen more than one shoulder rest "discussion" come and go?
ROTF oh yeah that and hyper sensitive discussion on rosin and anything one can imagine, it's almost like religious discussions... phew! ;D

Must have known it was time for a ranter seeing how many replies there are (sixth sense and all that you know) ;)
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline martyn

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,036

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Nineth year Anniversary Eighth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #13 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:44:12 PM »
Quote
Yes, but what *kind* of Kun? The plastic or wood, collapsible or non-?

Plastic with foam rubber. Note that I said Kun "type", it's a cheap chinese copy for the reason I stated in my last post.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #14 on: Nov 05, 2006, 10:49:16 PM »
I also use the inexpensive variety too, they work..

On the bottom of one
Resonans
Created by Elgard Ungh
            Stockholm-Sweden

Left side say made in the USA ??

Eight tiny dollars, and depending on getting the particular height you like, work just fine. ;)

Err well rubber on the feet looks a bit skimpy but still......
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #15 on: Nov 05, 2006, 11:45:18 PM »
Ok, since my reply to Heidi in the thread that got this started didn't get moderated over... 

Standard plastic Kun adjustible, I have two, one lives with the Hellmer since it has a narrow body and high arch and one for the other two flatter arched violins.  I keep it as low as feasable, to the point were I put a felt "chair foot" pad on it the one for the Hellmer to protect the back of the violin:


I grew up using a sponge and have tried on occasion to do the "no rest" thing, but don't quite have it down.  It's especially difficult for me with higher arching.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #16 on: Nov 05, 2006, 11:55:46 PM »
Ok, since my reply to Heidi in the thread that got this started didn't get moderated over... 
Removing yours would have ruined the contextual flow of the topic so it stayed put. :)
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #17 on: Nov 05, 2006, 11:56:44 PM »
Alan, don't be offended, but I think of that minimal Resonans as a scratch-o-matic looking for a target. Hey, if it works for you, that's why they're still selling them.
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #18 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:04:25 AM »
...would have ruined the contextual flow ... :)
Yep Alan, 'cause I was giving my uniformed opinion on the Bonmusica - I did wonder why I got jumped on, since by the time I was back, I never saw the digression I inspired.

Offline foose4string

  • 5 spangled dude
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,012
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Mobile User Search Tenth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #19 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:05:39 AM »
Shoulder rest, schmoulder rest. I've got a Kun collapsible, but it almost never gets used.  I spent too many years without one, so now anything else feels awkward.  I mainly bought the Kun to use with my old thin bodied Strados, but found that it's just more trouble than it's worth. I've had the Resonans in the past, and found it just as annoying.  My NS fiddle has removable shoulder rest that pivots on two axis', and it is essential that it gets used in order to hold up the instrument.  While easily the most most adjustable and comfortable shoulder rest I've used, the height adjustment  doesn't go as low as I would prefer.  I've contacted NS about this, and they said they are working on something that may remedy this, but it's only in the planning stages.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #20 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:26:54 AM »
Yep Alan, 'cause I was giving my uniformed opinion on the Bonmusica - I did wonder why I got jumped on, since by the time I was back, I never saw the digression I inspired.
You didn't get jumped on, didn't I put a smiley in the post, I was just concerned how it could go. But we can all have fun once again now that I split the topic :)
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline woodwiz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,158

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Mobile User Eighth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #21 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:28:13 AM »
I have apparently no neck at all, 'cause I can't even use a tall chin rest, much less a shoulder rest.  Some people say the neck is rather stiff as well, but that's another subject.

About all I ever use is a folded bandanna stuffed under my shirt when I'm playing in just a t-shirt (and britches, of course - shoes optional).  

Offline zaivanbuijs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,279

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Tenth year Anniversary Apple User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #22 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:35:12 AM »
Still glad I got rid of the rests (about two years ago that was I think). Been trying different things before that and never managed to get comfortable untill I ditched the rests.  
Today I played a friends fiddle and didn't bother to take off the shoulderrest, it was really awkward. Didn't play long like that. And even with the shoulderrest off, a chinrest feels "in the way" as well to me.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #23 on: Nov 06, 2006, 12:39:24 AM »
For those wishing to decline the heresy of the non-Kun camp, there are clones that are cheaper and work about as well. "Muco" and "Artino" come to mind, but a lot of stuff in this mind is blowin' in the wind.

Zai, I dare not go without a chinrest, since I sometimes go a couple or three days between shaves, and somebody close to me says I feel like sandpaper that way. I'm told that sandpaper and violins don't mix very well. (hey, Mr Moderator, I feel a nother thread fork coming on: ;D sandpaper innovation or scraper and shark skin tradition)
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #24 on: Nov 06, 2006, 01:52:04 AM »
I have apparently no neck at all, 'cause I can't even use a tall chin rest, much less a shoulder rest.
See now that is one of the real justifications for not using one at all. Now for some they might even need a tall rest just to be able to play...
I probably fall right in the middle here as when I was younger I got exposure and found no rest at all was possible. These days I find my neck bothers me from needing to apply energy to maintain a grip at all. A sponge, towel or any other possibility could be made to work but the shoulder rest is a nice one stop solution for me.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #25 on: Nov 06, 2006, 02:50:41 AM »
Alan, don't be offended, but I think of that minimal Resonans as a scratch-o-matic looking for a target. Hey, if it works for you, that's why they're still selling them.
Yep they do exhibit a high degree of potential for that, I did throw in the mention of the skimpy rubber on the feet. Well I figure they would be fine with due diligence and provided you aren't dancing around a lot, do you ;D
I don't use them anymore, have em in a drawer, but they did function. Now I have the Bonmusica's which are great cause you can dance around and flail your arms & bow around without dropping your instrument. I don't do that but figure I could if I wished too ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline PeterG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 680
  • Gender: Male

  • Total Badges: 25
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Nineth year Anniversary Eighth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #26 on: Nov 06, 2006, 02:08:38 PM »
I use a Kun collapsible, feeling it to be the best. I am willing, however, to concede that there are other paths to shoulder and chin comfort, even though they are not to my taste.

Offline natnot

  • Cupboard Dweller
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,497
  • Gender: Female
  • Mini Bree!
    • Natnot's homepage

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Linux User Mobile User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #27 on: Nov 06, 2006, 05:56:37 PM »
I just use a cloth thing folded up these days, though I use a Viva on the electric. It's probably more to do with laziness and not wanting to be attaching things every time I get it out of the case (electric stays out on a stand) than comfort. Sometimes I use a Wolf if I'm sitting down to play a lot. My Resonans has been firmly confined to a cupboard since it scratched my viola. >:(

Offline Fairview Fiddler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,150

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Nineth year Anniversary Quick Poster Windows User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #28 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:00:42 PM »
I use a comford that has the long spokes so it grabs four spots on the back. It's rock solid and comfortable but a bit heavy & won't fit into my case. Use a kun for away from the house playing.

Offline June

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,701

  • Total Badges: 18
    Badges: (View All)
    Eighth year Anniversary Seventh year Anniversary Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #29 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:12:42 PM »
Link is to the one I use on my Skyinbow elec.  Doesn't feel right for me on the accoustic.  Kinda pricey but found it's very worth it.  Adds just the right amt of comfort without taking up neck space, and the "hooks" are rubber padded so haven't noticed any probs with scratching the finish.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PLAYONAIR-VIOLIN-AND-VIOLA-SHOULDER-REST_W0QQitemZ260048601687QQihZ016QQcategoryZ38106QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #30 on: Nov 06, 2006, 06:24:41 PM »
Ease of use (of the violin) is part of why I would like to be able to comfortably play restless.  I would like to be able to take out and put back the violin in it's case for safety with out having to "fiddle" with the shoulder rest.

Offline chrisandcello

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,316

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Tenth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #31 on: Nov 06, 2006, 11:15:59 PM »
I just use a wolf shoulder rest and a 'whatever' chinrest.....sometimes its good to go bareback though..(no rests at all.... and the instrument does appear to sound better without a chinrest clamped to the body).
After messing around with under the ear...and away from the ear playing (trying to evaluate set up tone)...I'm getting quite proficient at playing from the waist...or rather resting the fiddle under the heart....no neck problems at all and as time goes on whatever strange grip I'm using isn't limiting me to 1st position!
The cost of trying all the chin and shoulder rest combos is rather prohibative ;D...probably cheaper to get a vertabrae or two removed! ;D

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #32 on: Nov 06, 2006, 11:46:22 PM »
The cost of trying all the chin and shoulder rest combos is rather prohibative ;D...probably cheaper to get a vertabrae or two removed! ;D
Probably ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Emma

  • Senior Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,136
  • Gender: Female
  • If you can walk, you can dance.

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Quick Poster Nineth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #33 on: Nov 07, 2006, 04:50:27 PM »
No one else has a Willy Wolf?
I've got two..........I like the pic of the wolf head on it..........that being said, I prefer my Kun.
Eat food.  Not too much.  Mostly plants.
(Michael Pollan)

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #34 on: Nov 07, 2006, 05:58:17 PM »
I can play restless but don't have as much L.H. freedom as I like when doing so, so usually use a rest.  I used a Kun Original for several years but had a problem with it collapsing while performing, especially on my main fiddle (I have an issue with bearing down with my chin when I'm nervous).  I tried the Knilling Viva, which is similar to the Kun but with rubber feet that wrap around the edge of the fiddle better.  This partially solved the problem but not totally (I still use this rest with my backup fiddle, on which it fits a little better).  Then I found the Kun Voce, which is a lightweight rest with a carbon-fiber body and wider, more stable rubber feet that really grip the edge.  I've never had this one collapse on me in about a year of use.  The only issue I have with it is that it doesn't have as big a height adjustment range as either the Kun Original or the Viva, and it took me a while to get it adjusted to where it was as comfortable as the others.

Offline natnot

  • Cupboard Dweller
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,497
  • Gender: Female
  • Mini Bree!
    • Natnot's homepage

  • Total Badges: 28
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Linux User Mobile User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #35 on: Nov 07, 2006, 06:00:43 PM »
No one else has a Willy Wolf?
I've got two..........I like the pic of the wolf head on it..........that being said, I prefer my Kun.


I have a Wolf, with the wolf head on...it says nothing about willy though!

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #36 on: Nov 08, 2006, 04:12:56 AM »
The fiddle with the Wolf lives with one of my offspring. Besides the wolf head, pretty sure it says "Willy Wolf Forte Primo" and maybe some other text regarding intellectual property rights to the design. Must be specially made for the US market; we get labels and text everywhere. Why just this morning I saw a Corona beer logo right across the back end of a ... no, that would be off topic. Sorry.
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline Natanael

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Eighth year Anniversary Seventh year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #37 on: Nov 08, 2006, 06:01:36 AM »
I'm using both shoulder rest and chin rest :) I couldn't play whithout them, but I have no idea if it's a special trademark or something.

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #38 on: Nov 13, 2006, 06:02:08 PM »
I've been shifting my Kun around lately to try to get the violin in the position it would be in if I had no rest.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #39 on: Nov 13, 2006, 10:15:47 PM »
Why just this morning I saw a Corona beer logo right across the back end of a ... no, that would be off topic. Sorry.
Why not this was intended as an rant & anarchy thread ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #40 on: Nov 14, 2006, 12:18:52 AM »
I've been shifting my Kun around lately to try to get the violin in the position it would be in if I had no rest.

I think this is a good idea; rests like the Kun make it possible to play in all sorts of inefficient positions, and easy to develop bad habits!  Several years ago I worked on learning to play without a shoulder rest and found that without that extra support, in order to keep the violin up the scroll had to shift around to the left further than I'd become accustomed to holding it; and this shift alligned my bow arm properly and made it easier to keep the bow perpendicular to the strings for its whole length!  When I returned to using a rest I did the same thing as you and set it up so that it kept the violin in that position, or close to it.  I think it's an interesting experiment for a violinist to see what it takes to play without a shoulder rest, even if you end up deciding you want to use one.

Offline mickeysmom

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,722

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #41 on: Nov 15, 2006, 03:35:37 PM »
I use a Kun collapsible... but agree it can be a pain stowing it with me every time I play out.  Have tried playing without a rest and it does force my left arm to move... interesting.  I'm going to experiment some more and see if what Steve W. says is true for me, too.   It seems like the sound of my violin vibrates thru my shoulder more without the Kun rest on... which is pretty neat.

Offline impromptuandy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8

  • Total Badges: 16
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 4 Seventh year Anniversary Level 3
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #42 on: Dec 08, 2006, 09:41:22 AM »
I use a wooden KUN, because the plastic one flexes too much and the screw can touch the back of my instrument.

I find a better sound with a shoulder-rest, maybe because they only clamp to the sides of the instrument (which can't resonate). With a pad or without anything I think i deaden the back of the instrument and lose some projection.

Having said that my teacher plays without and projects more than anyone I've ever heard.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #43 on: Dec 09, 2006, 05:52:12 PM »
Hmm today I got started watching some youtube videos of violinist doing trick playing etc...

This topic on the forum got me started and I decided to take the rest off of my electric (Bridge Instruments Aquila) and I found I was really none the worse for not having it on. Yeah it was a bit uncomfortable, the Aquila isn't designed for this, but my playing wasn't all that impeded for lack of a rest. It's not as if I never tried playing sans rest but it has been a while. I always go back and try different things eventually but I rarely set a schedule as to when. The violin will likely never make me a living so I don't take it all too seriously but I plug along as I enjoy it.
"Never get in too much of a rut"
Thats one of todays thoughts of the day :)
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline frodopogo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,409

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 5 Eighth year Anniversary Seventh year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #44 on: Dec 09, 2006, 07:13:22 PM »
I mostly play without.
Hey, I'm an old-time style fiddler.
When I put a shoulder rest on, I hear a change
in tone that makes the fiddle sound more
violinny and less fiddley.  I think it cuts sustain and
treble.
Playing without a shoulder rest,
I seem to like a high chinrest better.

I have tried two brands. Resonans and Kun.
The Resonans aren't adjustable, and
so they don't work with a high chinrest.
The Kun came with the last fiddle I purchased.
It was quite comfortable, but still I didn't like
the sound.

I get the idea that a really high quality violin
has volume to spare, and so the hit it takes
from a shoulder rest is proportionally small.

Cheaper fiddles like mine are often not that loud to begin
with, and really don't have enough volume to go
sacrificing some.

However, I am thinking of experimenting with
a shoulder rest, but no chinrest, to see if I like
that better.

Part of my resistance to shoulder rests
is because I'm used to guitar or banjo-
you tune it, then play it.
With fiddle, you have to:

1. Adjust bow hair
2. Rosin bow
3. Tune
4. Install shoulder rest

Not necessarily in that order.
I get impatient when I'm gigging, especially,
and partly because I also use guitar and banjo
at my gigs.  A shoulder rest seems like the proverbial
last straw.

Also, I sold the only case I had (oblong)
that had enough room to allow you to put the
shoulder rest away without folding it.

Of my two remaining cases, one allows a folded
Kun, and the other has no provision for storing
a shoulder rest at all.

Michael

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #45 on: Dec 09, 2006, 07:35:48 PM »
"When I put a shoulder rest on, I hear a change
in tone that makes the fiddle sound more
violinny and less fiddley.  I think it cuts sustain and
treble."

Agreed; I've noticed this as well using Kun-type rests.  However with my fiddle I prefer the tone with the rest to without; it has a bit more treble in its voice than I'd like!  I have noticed that my Kun Voce seems to affect the tone less than some others, possibly because it's light (carbon fiber) and hollow.

Offline zaivanbuijs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,279

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Tenth year Anniversary Apple User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #46 on: Dec 09, 2006, 08:22:20 PM »
There is a difference with my fiddle, I have a Kun rest lying about from my days of trying to find a rest that worked for me and I put it on my fiddle to hear if there is a difference and I think there is. Even recorded a bit with and without it, and in the recording the difference is there as well. Of course there's no accounting for taste, but I like the sound without the rest better. Which is a good thing, because I like playing without it better as well. Of course there is the added difference for me that I play with no chinrest and with the shoulderrest on my chin leaning more on the top of the fiddle. Without rest it's more towards the edge.

Offline madfiddler

  • Forum Owner
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,563
  • Gender: Male
  • Flit Kills Moths
    • madfiddler - Electric Violinist

  • Total Badges: 44
    Badges: (View All)
    Mobile User Level 7 5000 Posts
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #47 on: Dec 10, 2006, 02:16:46 AM »
I find it VERY difficult to play without a shoulder rest. Part of my problem is my grip is quite strong between shoulder and chin.. and without that grip I find changing positions a real problem.. add to that I find it very uncomfortable.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra membership privileges.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #48 on: Dec 10, 2006, 03:56:33 AM »
For the heck of it I removed the chin rest too, I could get used to it
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline fiddlejen

  • Granite State Bows
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,123
  • Gender: Female
  • God gave me a fiddle and told me to play...

  • Total Badges: 29
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Eighth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #49 on: Dec 11, 2006, 12:39:47 AM »
I was thinking about this on my way home, after some discussion this weekend about how can I sing & play at the same time.  (Works fine, except if I forget the words then I can't play the notes either...)  And of course, I rarely use my shoulder rest.  And if I do, I push it way up to the corners... I guess, basically, that positions it as if it weren't there...

So anyway, when I've read such a question before, I thought people meant they were too distracted by playing to sing ;;).  But apparently the real objection is, you can't move your mouth to sing??  (Right?)  And I can.  I've never even had a difficulty. 

Here's why:  (warning:  lecture ahead!)

You are not supposed to be using your shoulder and your chin to hold your fiddle!!!!

One end of your fiddle should rest in your hand (no matter what sort of pancaked or non-pancaked position you use!), and the other end should rest -- that's rest, not be-firmly-clamped-in-place -- against (approximately) your collarbone.  If you play sans shoulder-rest, it should make no difference to tone.  It shouldn't deaden the tone at all.  Your fiddle should not be pressing against your shoulder.  Nor against your chin.  Hand, Shoulder, and Collarbone are pivot points & balance points.  Chin & shoulder are balance points steadying points, that, simply by being there, prevent the fiddle from pivoting past the angle you've chosen at any given moment.  Points - balance points - not clamps. 

I suspect that shoulder rests contribute to the bad habits of using shoulder & chin as installation hardware.  If you play without one for any length of time it just becomes too muscularly inefficient to hold on for dear life, so eventually your shoulder neck & chin muscles learn how to balance properly instead.   Just being told to not clamp yourself to your fiddle probably isn't enough.  Those muscles have to learn how to do their balancing act, and they probably can't with that shoulder rest there already holding the fiddle steady.
Five Strings are Better than Four!

Granite State Bows:  Worth The Weight!
Fresh Quarried Bows for Players Requiring Rock-Solid Performance
What We Lack in Flexibility We Make Up For in Strength

Offline woodwiz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,158

  • Total Badges: 24
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Mobile User Eighth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #50 on: Dec 11, 2006, 01:08:08 AM »
Quote
You are not supposed to be using your shoulder and your chin to hold your fiddle!!!!

I couldn't agree more!  Lots of folks are being taught to hold their violin in a death grip between chin and shoulder, and IMO, it leads to all sorts of problems.

Shortly after I started getting serious about playing, I came across an article by Heifitz, who said that the neck of the fiddle should rest lightly in the hand, and that you should be able to rock the fiddle right and left under your chin with the thumb and fingers of the left hand.  He went on to say that the scroll should ride up a little when you shift up, and ride back down when you shift down. It's some of the most important advice I've come across, and has been a big help.

The less tension I have everywhere, the better I play, the faster I can play, and the better sound I get.  I don't have any problem with shifting or vibrato, as far as my skills go. The violin is very, very lightly held, yet it is extremely stable.  Now if I could only hold on to my bow............... :-\


Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #51 on: Dec 11, 2006, 02:59:55 PM »
You are not supposed to be using your shoulder and your chin to hold your fiddle!!!!

Strangely enough I actually agree and will add that I started running into issues last year (pain/injury) and the above statement may explain at least part of the cause.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline impromptuandy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8

  • Total Badges: 16
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 4 Seventh year Anniversary Level 3
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #52 on: Dec 11, 2006, 03:32:27 PM »
Its worth mentioning that (at least in the classical world) most soloists don't use shoulder rests, about half of chamber musicians use them and most orchestral musicians do use them, Having said that if you're playing in a packed pit it would be difficult to play without a shoulder rest - players without always need a bit more room

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #53 on: Dec 11, 2006, 03:48:04 PM »
Its worth mentioning that (at least in the classical world) most soloists don't use shoulder rests, about half of chamber musicians use them and most orchestral musicians do use them, Having said that if you're playing in a packed pit it would be difficult to play without a shoulder rest - players without always need a bit more room
Which establishes that there is a time and a place for everything oh yeah can't forget what some mentioned earlier on or in a different post from long long ago. Some of us observed that some classical players seem to stuff something under their jackets (equivalent to a sponge or towel) Yeah it is definitely not a rest but it is a support mechanism. You can't assume that absolutely no support is the way to go but I definitely agree that rests could be the cause of some problems.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #54 on: Dec 12, 2006, 05:57:25 PM »
Fiddlejen:

"So anyway, when I've read such a question before, I thought people meant they were too distracted by playing to sing ;Wink.  But apparently the real objection is, you can't move your mouth to sing??  (Right?)  And I can.  I've never even had a difficulty. "

While I agree with you that a shoulder rest shouldn't be used to clamp down on, I think that you had it right the first time.  I've talked to fiddlers I know about this issue and for a number of us, it's really an issue of not being able to do 2 things at once.  I can't even answer questions or call out instructions while I'm fiddling; I totally lose it even playing a tune I know very well, which makes me think that when playing, I'm using the same area of my brain that I use for speech (which makes sense, I guess).

Anyway, I subscribe to the idea that a shoulder rest should only be used to "fill up the gap" if your neck is long enough that you'd either have to bend your head down or raise up your shoulder to hold the violin correctly without a rest.  I think that corresponds to what most classical teachers teach. -Steve 

123kain123

  • Guest
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #55 on: Dec 15, 2006, 05:55:28 PM »
hi, please consider these comments i'm about to make are comming from a beginner that had never as much as touched or picked up a fiddle/violin until recently. in other words, consider the source. it was reccommended to me to puchase a shoulder rest. i bought a resonans. i did'nt even know how it was to fit on the fiddle. when i put everything between chin and shoulder, it felt like everything was trying to squirt out. first thing i thought of was, had i wasted my money or would i have a large collection of shoulder rests ? i've come to these conclusions, 1. don't wear oversized sweaters or sweatshirts, 2. keep adjusting the position of the shoulder rest till it feels more natural between your chin, collarbone and shoulder. hope this at least helps some that are new to fiddle/violin. if i'm totally off base, please correct my comments.  msm 

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #56 on: Dec 15, 2006, 08:18:12 PM »
This is a situation where it really helps to have someone who knows what they are doing (e.g., a teacher!) help you out.  I have found the videos on stance and position on the Violin Masterclass site to be quite enlightening.  Here's the URL for the one on shoulder rests: http://www.violinmasterclass.com/stance_qt.php?video=stance_shoulder&sctn=Shoulder%20and%20Chin%20Rest

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #57 on: Dec 16, 2006, 02:06:13 PM »
Good one Steve hadn't seen that one on my previous visits...

Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

123kain123

  • Guest
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #58 on: Dec 18, 2006, 05:52:59 PM »
hi, i'm sorry that i present a situation that only a teacher can remedy. i feel that no instruction book, instructor, web site, or video can teach me to feel comfortable with the fiddle. i have to repeatedly pick it up and place it in position in order for it to feel more natural and second nature to me. thankfully, with practice and making mental notes of position, i am more comfortable. in the 60's i played fingerstyle guitar and used a footrest. i'll never forget how awkward i felt when i first rehersed with a quartet of singers and was required to stand and play guitar. please don't missunderstand, i want all the help i can get, but i realize some things i have to do on my own. that web site helped me alot on what to look for in regards to the angles of the bow and i say "thanks". in all sincerity, all i was trying to say about the shoulder rest was to give it a little time and try adjusting it a few times. in an age of "instant gradification" or "i want it now", you might discover you're happy with what you have.   msm

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #59 on: Dec 18, 2006, 06:15:57 PM »
you might discover you're happy with what you have.   msm
you seem to be on the right track and well that is the violin for you there are many possibilities and no one absolutely right answer.
Violin Master Class has some excellent suggestions but no matter you have to find what is right for you at the moment. Later on you may find you change your mind the process is iterative (or continuously evolving) After having payed without shoulder rest and chin rest I think I figured out for myself that any issues I had may be more related to the chin rest. I think it was like a cascading comedy of errors where I frustrated myself with fussing about shoulder rests and then figure out my difficulties relate to a chin rest. Hey maybe a change is called for or perhaps no chin rest is better for me as it doesn't seem to be an issue of needing softness but might be that it was forcing a position on me that was actually causing discomfort. Now don't get me wrong I didn't just start violin I have been at it for about five years on and off. The on again off again syndrome was likely caused by multiple factors lack of time, injuries..., perhaps inappropriate supporting equipment (shoulder rest, chin rest)
All one can do is to continue to refine and discover what is best for oneself. Try it all never assume there is only one answer...
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

123kain123

  • Guest
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #60 on: Dec 18, 2006, 06:51:13 PM »
well said. the advice of knowledge and experiance go hand in hand.thanks,   msm

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #61 on: Dec 18, 2006, 10:13:42 PM »
Quote from: 123kain123
...you might discover you're happy with what you have.

Quote from: Alan K
...never assume there is only one answer...

It seems we are well supplied with philosophers. I like that.

Somewhere on this web thingy I read that if you want to build height in the rest/fiddle/rest stack, often the best place to do it is by raising the chinrest, or using a taller one.

That may be true in the case of that Jordan from the beginning of this thread, which has the foam-covered bar from a Kun shoulder rest bolted to a couple of standoffs on the bass end, with the other end floating out in space, since there's not much to clamp it to over there. I notice she's got a bitty little flat chinrest on, not sure if that's the one the maker shipped with it or not, but it can't be more than 3/8" or 1/2" high, say 9 to 12 mm. I think if I screwed on a nice tall bumpy Guarneri type rest, it might give me more ways to hold the fiddle, and more comfortably, but I'm not about to go changing the chinrest every time just so I can play a borrowed fiddle. (Usually around midnight, with headphones on...) Right now I'm thinking I'll find a piece of dense foam to put over it, or just play it more and worry less about the perfect jaw hold.

Finding a comfortable hold is important and I don't want anyone to get the idea I'm minimizing it. I have had to lay off for long stretches with muscle knots under the shoulder blade from clenching the fiddle, so please do pay kind attention to what the old bod is trying to tell you.

Layers and layers of puffy slippery clothing don't always help, but I'm guessing that with the right geometry, or rest setup, or attitude, they matter less than you might think. I don't know.

I once heard a teacher mention the usefulness of forming a sight picture with the scroll and a feature on the wall, like a switch plate. About that time I gauged the consistency of the roll angle of the fiddle by leveling some ridges I could see on the scroll. Yaw angle is something I'm still undecided about; my wife thinks I should hold the fiddle more forward than I do, and I'm still finding what works best there. Pitch angle is something I'm just now starting to play with after 30 years of playaing more or less badly. I used to think it should be level or slightly scroll-up, but now I'm starting to let it vary, while paying attention to it.

There are a lot of different things there to be attended to. Good luck!
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #62 on: Dec 18, 2006, 10:29:48 PM »
It seems we are well supplied with philosophers. I like that.
Duly noted ;D

Right now Bill I got it as Resonans #2 and no chin rest on the Bridge Instruments Aquila (mine is black) I decided that some shifts were harder (not impossible) with no rest so I added the Resonans. I like that I can put my chin where it falls not on the bullseye aka the chin rest. Don't ask me why it is working  but it seems to be working very well for me at the moment. Ask me what I am doing next month when next month arrives ;)


« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2006, 10:51:48 PM by Alan Kroeger »
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline madfiddler

  • Forum Owner
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,563
  • Gender: Male
  • Flit Kills Moths
    • madfiddler - Electric Violinist

  • Total Badges: 44
    Badges: (View All)
    Mobile User Level 7 5000 Posts
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #63 on: Dec 18, 2006, 11:26:12 PM »
(Bridge's do shift with chin rests as standard - those are really early photos) - and there are slots for shoulder rests now.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra membership privileges.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #64 on: Dec 18, 2006, 11:33:29 PM »
Hey I didn't even realize that the photos didn't show chin rests, that's too funny ;D They need to do some web site updates over there ;)
Well my Aquila is circa 2000/2001 I believe, I spose that qualifies as early.

PS: Make note that the blue instrument is a five string so that is actually a Lyra model not an Aquila. One more the back side is actually concave not convex so really you are not going to get any substantial support from the back side of the instrument.
« Last Edit: Dec 18, 2006, 11:54:23 PM by Alan Kroeger »
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #65 on: Jan 15, 2007, 05:53:14 PM »
Funny it is nearly a month since I dropped Shoulder and Chin Rest and I did actually break down and put it on for one practice session. While I did put the Shoulder rest back on once, due to difficulty with a G string shift, I have been practicing without it for the rest of the time. I actually do prefer it and am starting to become very comfortable without them, G string shifts and all.

While the main reason for using one is to facilitate or make shifts easier. Now as stated from other posts about proper positioning being important. I never took up or considered that droopy old timey fiddling position so popular with that genre. That position is equivalent to rock n roll guitarist and the ultra low slung silliness. Such things are just stylistic posturing for people trying to project a genre coolness factor. I hold it just as I had with a shoulder rest only I have to use my left hand to add support of a proper position.
It seems to have had a benefit of making me think more about executing shifts more effectively while supporting the neck with the hand. I don't find this all that much of hindrance after all the violin is small and light so no big deal...

Don't worry I am not going to become one of those people who become anti or pro rest Nazis. But what the heck the experiment seems to have been effective in forcing me to rethink a few things.

PS: Been doing this with both my fairly low profile electric and my very standard Stradivarius patterned acoustic.
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline zaivanbuijs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,279

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Tenth year Anniversary Apple User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #66 on: Jan 15, 2007, 10:10:50 PM »
Fun to read your exploits on going restless. Now I do feel a bit of a need to comment on that "droopy old timey fiddling posture comparing to rock n roll guitarists and the ultra low slung silliness" you mention.
I couldn't care less about the look of the posture, but I do have my scroll a bit more to the floor then the average classically trained violinist. And there is only one reason for that: plain old laziness. Why do something in a way that is less energy efficient when it can be done with far less effort.
Now I'm pretty sure that the way I do it won't work for everyone, but it works for me, with least effort. Those rock n roll guitarists you mention do look like they're putting in extra effort to reach. 

Anyway, it's interesting to experience how changing things can make one so much more aware of all the things going on (and how that inevitably leads to improved playing), and it's fun to read others having the same type of experiences   :)

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #67 on: Jan 15, 2007, 11:09:28 PM »
Now I do feel a bit of a need to comment on that "droopy old timey fiddling posture comparing to rock n roll guitarists and the ultra low slung silliness" you mention.
I can understand your concern with my statement and glad you seemed to understand that it wasn't intended to indict everyone who droops the instrument. But I did after all mention that some do it for that reason. Mostly my intention was to discourage anyone intentionally doing this in an exaggerated fashion. I did (however) say it because I didn't want anyone to think I was gravitating towards doing that type of thing so I mentioned it. It did come off sounding a bit harsher then intended (reminder to self: gotta watch how you say write things)  :-X

PS: I guarantee that I droop a little as compared to when using a rest so perhaps your droop isn't as severe as some I have seen....
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline zaivanbuijs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,279

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Tenth year Anniversary Apple User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #68 on: Jan 15, 2007, 11:41:26 PM »
Mostly my intention was to discourage anyone intentionally doing this in an exaggerated fashion.
Yeah, as with anything that is done in an exaggerated fashion for no functional reason, that would be bad. As would be doing something because "that's the way it's done" and not know on what functionality that "way it's done" is based. :)

And yeah, it's not easy typing things so that everyone reads what one is trying to mean. ;)

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #69 on: Jan 16, 2007, 12:23:12 AM »
Thanks Zai :)
Here is something I do but really have to wonder if I should tell anyone.... Ah what the heck why not.

Sometimes when I am feeling very lazy and want to watch news or some TV show I lie down and fiddle. Yup I put the fiddle up somewhat under my chin and lay it across my chest and diddle on the instrument. Now that is an example of something you probably shouldn't do but what the heck at least I get a little more time in. I mostly do this with the electric as it is fairly quiet I find I can't play near the frog as the mattress interferes with the tip of the bow ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline fiddlejen

  • Granite State Bows
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,123
  • Gender: Female
  • God gave me a fiddle and told me to play...

  • Total Badges: 29
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Eighth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #70 on: Jan 17, 2007, 03:24:12 AM »
So, even though most people would settle for replacing their chin-rest with something like a towel, instead you replace your chin-rest with a mattress!
::) ;) :D
Five Strings are Better than Four!

Granite State Bows:  Worth The Weight!
Fresh Quarried Bows for Players Requiring Rock-Solid Performance
What We Lack in Flexibility We Make Up For in Strength

Offline Alan Kroeger

  • Senior Moderator
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,052
  • Gender: Male
  • Global Grinch

  • Total Badges: 32
    Badges: (View All)
    Windows User Level 6 Invisible
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #71 on: Jan 17, 2007, 11:18:19 AM »
So, even though most people would settle for replacing their chin-rest with something like a towel, instead you replace your chin-rest with a mattress!
::) ;) :D

No still no chin rest just me relaxin a fiddlin and a didlin on a mattress ;D
Become a Forum Friend and get DISCOUNTS from our advertisers!
plus extra editing and avatar privileges.

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #72 on: Feb 11, 2007, 01:09:56 AM »
Had a sort of epiphany today...   I was trying to get playing time in on all three violins and since both the Krauch and the Mystery are close enough in lower bout sizes, I just trade off the same shoulder rest on them, the Hellmer's is dedicated since it has small bouts and adjusting it is just enough of a pain.

So, today, I was extra lazy and after playing the Mystery a bit decided to change to the Krauch, and didn't feel like changing over the shoulder rest.  I've been trying to work up comfort with no rest and today I just folded up the cloth I keep over the violin in the case, slapped it on my shoulder and tried.  I turned out to be just right!  I tried it with the Hellmer also and there to it is fine. 

So now it is time to start practicing with out the rest to get used to it.  My hold has to open up somewhat to allow for the flatter position of the violin.  I will also need to adust the legs on my kun rests to get the same angle.  My bow arm needs to get used to being just a touch higher for each string as a result.

Offline mickeysmom

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,722

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2007, 02:23:21 PM »
Don't know if it's my imagination or not, but the Barsov violin from Gianna's sounds better to me without a shoulder rest on it.  I don't know that I could hold up as long without using the rest, as my neck is long and having to bend my head over to play. Interesting.  Just a comment from the peanut gallery here.

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2007, 05:16:36 PM »
When I showed my teacher about losing the shoulder rest, he was very supportive.  He feels that with out the rest you have more ability to control the tonal sound of the violin by movement and adjustment of angles.  That may be what you are hearing with the Barsov.

Offline wewillsee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 63

  • Total Badges: 17
    Badges: (View All)
    Level 4 Seventh year Anniversary Sixth year Anniversary
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2007, 04:51:18 PM »
I suspect that shoulder rests contribute to the bad habits of using shoulder & chin as installation hardware.  If you play without one for any length of time it just becomes too muscularly inefficient to hold on for dear life, so eventually your shoulder neck & chin muscles learn how to balance properly instead.   Just being told to not clamp yourself to your fiddle probably isn't enough.  Those muscles have to learn how to do their balancing act, and they probably can't with that shoulder rest there already holding the fiddle steady.

My playing after three months has improved due to using a shoulder rest. I started without one, and after a month my neck and shoulder seized up. So I stopped playing for a couple of days and got a Wolf rest. My neck has had quite a few injuries over the years (and lower back and knees too!) that have healed well. Taking up playing the violin again means I now have to take in to account the quite radical change in body image made by holding a bow and violin. The seizing up was a warning sign I recognised immediately - to stop. Ideally, a violin should float in the hand and on the collar bone, to be essentially, resonating in almost free space. That takes a heck of a lot of learning and experience to make a violin sing that freely.

I am now training my neck and upper back to accept holding bow and violin - as similar to yoga exercise. The shoulder rest is helping me not to think too much about holding the violin while concentrating more on playing. Some days I leave it off - as eventually, I would like to play without it or a chin rest, as it will sound better. It helps to fully stretch all four limbs before playing, and feeling OK about picking up and putting down the violin - the moment it begins to feel kind of uncomfortable. Standing up, walking around and sitting down again actually prevents the body from 'locking up',and I find the more my posture is at ease with the complex task at hand, then the better I play with a more focused involvement. The shoulder rest is there if and when I need it. Glad to have one.     

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2007, 06:12:20 PM »
I may have said this earlier in the thread (this is a looong one!) but I've come to the conclusion that it's definitely worth learning how to play without a shoulder rest, even if you conclude, like me, that you need one.  As Jen noted, use of a Kun or similar rest encourages a position where the rest acts as a fulcrum and the head as a counterweight, and this can cause a number of different problems--poor position, neck problems from clamping down on the fiddle, etc.  When you play without a rest it seems you're pretty much forced to adopt a correct classical position where the violin's out over the shoulder more, partially supported with the left hand, with very little pressure from the chin to hold it in place.  Once you know what this position feels like you can put the rest back on and adjust it so that it keeps the violin in that position. 

After playing since childhood with various shoulder rests (30 some-odd years), about 4 years ago I spent several months playing without one as an experiment and immediately noticed improvements in my position and sound (I think mostly because putting the violin in the proper position improved the angle of the bow to the strings), even though it initially felt awkward to hold the fiddle and my left hand felt too constrained.  I got to the point where it felt natural to play without a rest but after experiencing some ongoing neck pain I decided that I needed more height so put the rest back on.  I still use a Kun for daily practicing and performance but have kept the proper position, and I think that experience helped my playing a lot. -Steve

Offline costumer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
  • Gender: Female

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Linux User Mobile User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM »
I've played with a shoulder rest far longer than without one.  Just the other day, by chance, I was putting the violin away and thought again of something I wanted to quickly play, and didn't pop the rest back on just for that.  Well, besides being terribly awkward to hold, (couldn't remember how I could have possibly shifted with this grip, almost unable to keep the violin from falling without using my left hand) I didn't like the tone of the instrument at all!  It sounded sort of shrill and nasally and much less pretty.  I've read of folks learning to play without shoulder and chin rests to improve the sound of their violin, but after this, I can't see how it could possibly be an advantage.  It seems to me as though the rests allow there to be fewer/smaller contact points with the instrument that could potentially dampen the sound.  What am I missing here?

Kathy

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2007, 11:19:39 PM »
As I understand it the violin itself doesn't necesarily sound better - depending on the rest removed, it may have less or more dampening of the back.  The big thing you get tone wise without a rest is more mobility of the violin to aid in playing and in aiming the projection as desired.

Offline Steve_W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,636

  • Total Badges: 22
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Level 4
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2007, 05:33:13 PM »
The damping effect from the rest can actually improve the sound of the instrument; my main violin sounds a little harsh without its rest (a Kun Voce, that grips the edges and doesn't touch the resonating part of the back at all).  But I'm guessing that changing strings or a good setup, or maybe even an adjustment in bowing technique could eliminate this harshness if I felt like pursuing playing rest-less.

Offline beeswing

  • Mugwump
  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,117
  • Gender: Male
  • Just typing a lot doesn't mean I'm any good...

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Linux User Tenth year Anniversary Level 5
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2007, 09:23:04 PM »
This afternoon there was this violin I wanted to try out, and I couldn't go get a shoulder rest without intruding in the lesson space. I was having some difficulty until I tried this:



Made a platform for the fiddle to sit on, without a touch of jaw needed; worked fine for a tune or two, and there's no reason to suppose it would give trouble in a more extended session, other than, "hey, mac, you always keep a spare pair of socks like that?"
I want to be a musician when I grow up.
Sorry, son, you can't do both.

Offline zaivanbuijs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,279

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Search Tenth year Anniversary Apple User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2007, 11:02:03 PM »
I wouldn't know what a sock (or rolled up towel or whatever) there could do to keep the fiddle up. The only thing I imagine it would do (pretty sure, if my bathrobe lappel is folded just there it does it too I hereby admit publically to fiddling before getting properly dressed) is dampen the sound of the fiddle.

Still, rest, no rest, sock or barefeet, go with whatever works ;)

Offline sreizes

  • Someone with 5 blobs
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,171

  • Total Badges: 27
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Nineth year Anniversary Linux User
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2007, 11:41:45 PM »
I've slipped my cloth under my braces that way once or twice since dropping the rest.  

I have in fact reached a new non-shoulder-rest milestone - having played our entire spring concert (including Pictures at an Exhibition) restless, I have now removed the shoulder rest from my case pocket, thus freeing up space for more useless junk!  :D

Offline GelRest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107

  • Total Badges: 23
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Level 5 Super Combination
Re: To rest or not to rest that is a question
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2007, 11:10:45 PM »
Having been in the violin comfort business for the last 5 years, I've learned a few things : for example, that for players who don't need a shoulder rest, chinrest etc. its just because of their own personal preference or the way they are built.  So, if you're NOT comfortable it doesn't necessarily mean you're not holding the instrument properly.  Lots of accomplished professional players, including world-class slosists, use shoulder rests.   In fact, the last statistic I saw was that 80 % of all players use some type of shoulder rest.  So us shoulder rest users have a lot of company.

And don't forget about your hard chinrest, while you're at it.  There's nothing comfortable about a piece of hard wood, especially if you play a lot. 

SteveK
www.GelRest.com

 




Get Adobe Flash player


Fiddle and Alternative Strings Forum (c) 2016 Mark Knight /
SONiC FUEL
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal