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Author Topic: Tartini to cease all rosin production?  (Read 8093 times)

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Offline b-lansing

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Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« on: Nov 14, 2005, 02:42:53 PM »
Morning all! I was on another board and this posting about Tartini Rosin was on it. What do you all make of it?  ???

http://www.absss.com/

It takes forever to load in Korean, I just hit cancel and it popped up in english.

Betsy

Offline Nfkfiddler

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #1 on: Nov 14, 2005, 03:26:23 PM »
Perhaps Mark and Alison can find out more..............................

This could start panic buying :D

Offline marktheharp

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #2 on: Nov 14, 2005, 06:15:13 PM »
Hi all,

MinKwang, from ABSSS, who makes and markets Tartini (MinKwang owns the Tartini trademark but makes it for Andreas Bang, who provides the raw materials and formula), has been talking in confidence to us over the weekend. We can only say that Tartini is a great product (we decided to stock it because of the feedback it was getting) and it appears that although MinKwang is ceasing production, the actual product may get marketed in a different guise (eventually). MinKwang has privately been very honest about his situation but beyond our (and others') opinions that it's a good product that deserves to be manufactured, it would be pure speculation to say what might happen in the future.

We obviously have to weigh up whether it's worth buying a huge stock of this, as we still have all of the Tartini range in stock and we would like to think it's probably going to be resurrected with the same formulation at some point. We will replenish our shop stock so people in the UK will have a supply.

We've always offered a discounted Mini Rosin when people purchase an Incredibow, and we'll continue this offer with the full-size rosins when the minis run out so people can benefit from this great stuff, as Incredibows and Tartini Rosins go so well together.

We can only suggest, though, that if you are in the UK (there are others that sell elsewhere and we can point people there if you are outside the UK) then do buy some Tartini Rosin if you think you're going to need some in the near future! We only have things on the site that we physically have in stock, so if it's on our website then it's in stock! You can purchase via the site or give us a ring on 01386 700496. Our entire Tartini rosin list is at http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=17.

PS - you might like to know we only have two presentation sets left (violin/viola solo and symphony) at http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=&products_id=92 - these are really nicely presented in handmade paper, and they would make great gifts for the fiddler in your life (or you!). We presume we have the last of these as they're not mentioned on the absss site.
« Last Edit: Nov 14, 2005, 07:13:53 PM by marktheharp »

Offline fidla

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #3 on: Nov 15, 2005, 02:21:27 PM »
It's a really great rosin.  Too bad for the manufacturer.  But there are other really good rosins on the market, and I especially like the fiddler's green rosin that we recommend for our TwoTree Carbon Graphite bows.  It's grabby and goes on quickly like tartini, but costs about 1/3 the price!

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #4 on: Nov 15, 2005, 04:02:43 PM »
We obviously have to weigh up whether it's worth buying a huge stock of this, as we still have all of the Tartini range in stock and we would like to think it's probably going to be resurrected with the same formulation at some point. We will replenish our shop stock so people in the UK will have a supply.

The stuff has a shelf-life, right?  Wouldn't think you'd want to buy up too much...

Offline Nfkfiddler

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #5 on: Nov 15, 2005, 04:12:15 PM »
A great pity but I'm sure fiddling will survive......

Offline B natural

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #6 on: Nov 15, 2005, 07:54:16 PM »
I bought a couple of cakes from Mark (one solo, one symphony) which should last me a fair while. I really like Tartini - best ever rosin I've tried so far.

Rob.

Offline soundboot

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #7 on: Nov 15, 2005, 08:33:08 PM »
This isn't like when Heinz in the UK announced they would stop making salad cream is it?  They still make it though! Did wonders for the sales!!

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 18, 2005, 04:24:37 PM »
I was told by my luthier yesterday that Tartini rosin was never a big seller in their shop, as compared to Jade.  They are of course very different rosins.
Is there a touch of hype going on??

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 18, 2005, 04:28:41 PM »
Does anybody know what the shelf-life of rosin is? I have always thought it kept indefinitely, and have never had a piece "go bad" on me. Any info would be appreciated.

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 18, 2005, 06:03:03 PM »
Different manufacturers have different recommendations.   It does seem to vary between brands; I had a cake of Hill Dark that was probably 20 years old that was indistinguishable in performance from the cake I replaced it with (after I dropped the old one and it shattered).   The other day I found a cake of AB that's probably 10-15 years old that seems to have hardened up quite a bit though.   

I may be wrong about Tartini having a shelf-life; I happened onto the story that the rosin was formulated based on chemical analysis of a lump of rosin found in an old violin case that was presumed to date from the time of Tartini, that was still usable! -Steve

Offline fidla

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #11 on: Nov 18, 2005, 06:43:28 PM »
I was told by my luthier yesterday that Tartini rosin was never a big seller in their shop, as compared to Jade.  They are of course very different rosins.
Is there a touch of hype going on??

could very well be.  I emailed Mr Bang personally and there has been no reply. 

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #12 on: Nov 18, 2005, 08:03:30 PM »
Thanks guys. Steve, re the rosin cake that hardened over the years, did you try it, and if so was  the feel different from a newer cake of the same rosin?

Offline marktheharp

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #13 on: Nov 18, 2005, 08:42:50 PM »
Sorry to end the speculation about the speculation, but as far as I know, Tartini rosin is not going to be made again under the Tartini name. A shame as it's an excellent product. Whether someone takes up the manufacture is to be hoped, but not sure what the "hype" is - it's a good product but the difficulties were not about the product itself.

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #14 on: Nov 18, 2005, 11:10:52 PM »
Thanks guys. Steve, re the rosin cake that hardened over the years, did you try it, and if so was  the feel different from a newer cake of the same rosin?

I didn't really get a chance to try it.  I was looking for a dark, sticky rosin to load up the new Fiddler's beta test bow I'd just received from Adam and since this cake was out on a counter where I'd left it after finding it while cleaning out a drawer, I tried to use it.  However the hair just skittered across the cake without picking anything up, which I don't recall being typical behavior for AB!  Instead I dug around in my case for my current cake of Millant-Deroux, which went on easily. 

Regarding Tartini rosin, maybe in 200 years somebody will find a lump of it forgotten in an old case, reformulate it, and call it... what? :) -Steve

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #15 on: Nov 19, 2005, 01:40:08 AM »
Marktheharp- You're right, no reason to hype a discontinued product. Hype remark withdrawn .   
Dark sticky rosin Steve?  AAAACHHH!!!  Nicht on mein bow...

Offline Danielle

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #16 on: Nov 19, 2005, 02:43:26 PM »
I also emailed them, but no reply. I have a new cake and a half of a cake left, so it will last me a while. how is oliv rosin compared to tartini?

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #17 on: Nov 19, 2005, 03:17:40 PM »
Marktheharp- You're right, no reason to hype a discontinued product. Hype remark withdrawn .   
Dark sticky rosin Steve?  AAAACHHH!!!  Nicht on mein bow...

Yeah, I know.  I don't like my rosin that dark any more but it's still good for loading up an unrosined bow for the first time. -Steve

Offline fidla

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #18 on: Nov 19, 2005, 03:45:34 PM »
I also emailed them, but no reply. I have a new cake and a half of a cake left, so it will last me a while. how is oliv rosin compared to tartini?

All I can say about Oliv is I didn't like it much.  But that's personal.  I was a huge Gustav Bernadel fan for years.  It was my only rosin from the late 70s to early '00s, and Tartini broke me out of that routine.  But now I enjoy Fiddler's rosin.  It has similar properties as the Tartini green and Jade rosins, at about 1/4 the price. 

Offline quinnt01

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Rosin deformulation and shelflife
« Reply #19 on: Nov 21, 2005, 02:33:14 AM »
Rosin has a limited shelf life due to its tendency to rapidly oxidize.  Suppliers of rosin, that is people who sell rail cars of it, commonly put a 6 month shelf life on it. 

Tartini may, or may not, be an outstanding violin rosin, but the part about it being the result of figuring out the composition of a 200 year old piece is pure marketing hype.  It simply isn't possible to separate the components of rosin mixtures and identify them in any meaningful way with current analytical techniques.  If Tartini has developed such techniques, I'm sure companies such as Arizona Chemical and Westvaco would pay handsomely for it.  And with the limited shelf life of rosin and similar materials, any 200 year old piece would bear little resemblance to the original.

- Tom

Offline Nfkfiddler

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #20 on: Nov 21, 2005, 02:03:08 PM »
I've suggested before that all rosin should have a sell by date...........

Offline beeswing

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #21 on: Nov 21, 2005, 02:11:25 PM »
I've still got the 20 or 30 year old cake of Hidersine cello rosin that showed up all alligatored with surface cracks, that I freshened up with a spritz of alcohol vapor in a deli bucket. (I happened to have a new cake of the same stuff at the time, and wanted to see how it went...) It may be my abysmal technique, but I never noticed a difference between the old and the new.

About the same time I was into trying different rosins, and remember liking Pirastro Cellisto better than their Cello rosin.

Could it be that stickier rosin lasts longer?
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #22 on: Nov 21, 2005, 02:25:37 PM »
I've suggested before that all rosin should have a sell by date...........

better yet, how about a "born on" date?  works for budwiper!:)

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #23 on: Nov 21, 2005, 03:38:28 PM »
When Tartini rosin first came out, I was offered a deep discount on a bulk purchase, and wound up buying 10 of the dual packs with 1 solo and 1 orchestra.
For a long time after I felt stupid at getting sucked into buying so many, and
gave away 2 as Christmas gifts to my students.
I am now debating whether to give the rest away and keep only 3 or 4 cakes. It hinges on the shelf life, and this seems to be a matter for debate.
Just from my own experience, I have occasionally kept a cake of rosin in use over a period of several years, and not noticed any change in appearance or performance.
This has held true for Hill, Hidersine, and A&B among others.
I am wondering if it hinges on how it is stored (cool dry shelf) or what.

stone

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #24 on: Nov 21, 2005, 04:22:31 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:05:55 AM by stone »

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #25 on: Nov 21, 2005, 05:13:25 PM »
Yes Ms. Stone, storage has to be a major factor. It would certainly do better in a cool place, than in a violin case where the temp constantly changes.
Could an analogy be drawn to violin varnish? Varnish doen not deteriorate on a violin if it is protected, except for alligatoring sometimes, but that would be because of heat exposure I think. 

Offline quinnt01

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #26 on: Nov 22, 2005, 03:45:50 AM »
Rosin is VERY susceptible to oxidation compared to other similar resins and a lot of effort goes into stabilizing it by esterification and hydrogenation for use in other industrial products such as adhesives, cosmetics, and paper sizing.  In fact finely ground rosin powder oxidizes so rapidly it can spontaneously combust.

Rosin is a strong allergen and it's one of the first compounds used by allergists for patch testing.  Here's a link to an article that discusses the problem of rosin oxidation on the shelf life of allergy patches:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9746183&dopt=Abstract 

As rosin oxidizes its softening point increases and it gets harder.  Some people say it "dries out".  The fact that so many people use violin rosin for so long and that it changes so much over time implies to me that there is a lot of latitude in violin rosin properties and most people only notice big differences between rosins.

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #27 on: Nov 22, 2005, 05:12:30 PM »
How permeable is a cake of rosin?  Does the whole thing oxidize or is it just a surface layer?  Maybe frequent usage of a cake scrubs off the oxidized layer and exposes fresh rosin?  It would be interesting to look at performance of a cake of rosin over time, if such a thing could be measured.   You could be right about most players only noticing gross differences in performance, but I think it's more likely that if there is slow degradation over time, players simply unconsciously adjust their technique to match the rosin's performance.

Offline quinnt01

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #28 on: Nov 23, 2005, 02:07:54 AM »
You're right.  The degradation will primarily occur on the surface where there is oxygen exposure and probably not penetrate into the cake very fast.   Since the surface is constantly being renewed by being scratched off during use, a cake of rosin probably lasts a very long time.  I'd worry about the cake that sits around for a long time and is only used occasionally.  The 300 year old Tartini prototype is another matter.  There is no way that stuff is "fresh".

I think the rosin on the string and bow is another matter.  It's a thin film and would be very susceptible to oxidation.  I suspect that the reason bows need frequent applications of new rosin, and the reason strings need to be periodically cleaned is that the oxidized residue needs removal.  As rosin oxidizes it loses its tack and becomes ineffective.  I also suspect that the fine rosin powder that accumulates on a violin body is high oxidized.

stone

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #29 on: Nov 23, 2005, 02:38:14 AM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:06:19 AM by stone »

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #30 on: Nov 23, 2005, 05:12:11 AM »
Good point Ms. Stone. I am holding on to my Tartini inventory, and keeping it in a cool dry location. Under these conditions  I am hoping it will keep several years at least.
Let's have a reunion for all Tartini owners in ten years time and compare notes!

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #31 on: Nov 23, 2005, 05:15:40 AM »
I'm even thinking that we may all be surprised to find that after years of careful aging that rosin develops superior qualities heretofore unimagined, like a fine wine.
There may be a market for aged Tartini down the road.

Offline beeswing

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #32 on: Nov 23, 2005, 08:21:05 AM »
Larry, if you're serious about preserving it, you may consider sealing it in a vacuum pouch. Keeping rosin in dry nitrogen would be pretty much over the top...

I don't know that the best rosin storage temperature has been studied. Honey, for example, will crystallize in a refrigerator but not a freezer. I've kept frames of comb honey in a chest freezer without them going off (if you consider crystallization to be a form of going off.) Rosin, on the other hand, probably will not benefit from freezing. Bet it gets brittle.

Stone, I don't know whether gasoline oxidizes slowly or loses some volatile fraction with age by evaporation, or a bit of both, but gas (petrol) long in the tank gets a funny smell, and is supposed not to work as well as fresh stuff. They sell an additive to stabilize gas in equipment that's only used seasonally and stored for months, like snow blowers and lawn mowers, bikes and snowmobiles.

Maybe Tom knows if the outgassing of lighter fractions of rosin is significant.

Sheesh, I should be sleeping instead of rattling on about this...
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2005, 08:30:38 AM by beeswing »
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Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #33 on: Nov 23, 2005, 04:23:41 PM »
Beeswing,
The honey analogy is  interesting. I heard somewhere that  pure honey has an incredibly long shelf life. If the honeycombs you store go off, it could be the comb and extraneous material contained in it, not the actual honey- what do you think?

Offline beeswing

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #34 on: Nov 23, 2005, 04:33:31 PM »
The only time honey will go bad is if you water it down; then it can get yeasty, and not at all in a nice way. It could also happen so if you robbed the supers before the bees had a chance to dry the nectar enough, but that's pretty unlikely.

Capped comb honey never really goes off, but crystallized comb honey is not what most people expect. Honey, being a supersaturated sugar solution, has a wicked drying effect, so most microbes get desiccated into extinction if they try to survive there.

You can test the water content of honey by turning the jar upside down. In a one-pound "queenline" jar, the oval flat kind with a ripply edge, the bubble should take at least two seconds to reach the other end.
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #35 on: Nov 23, 2005, 04:48:50 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:06:41 AM by stone »

Offline beeswing

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #36 on: Nov 23, 2005, 05:03:35 PM »
When I was Chief Engineer at the cryo-sensor outfit (when I wanted to call a department meeting, I'd call across the garage, "Scott, can we talk?") we did the usual stuff with liquid nitrogen and shattering dandelions... LED's get really efficient at that temperature, and can take a boatload of current, putting out an awful lot of light at the time.

I meant for Larry to pack his rosin in a hermetically sealed vessel with a nitrogen atmosphere and no moisture.
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Offline Nfkfiddler

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #37 on: Nov 23, 2005, 05:06:35 PM »
Nothing wrong with your honey, Ms Stone, it just hasn't had the right conditions to crystallize.   Warming will return it to it's liquid (clear) state.

Honey setting without seeding* often sets with course crystals.    

*Adding a small percentage of fine crystallized honey to clear honey when bottled.

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #38 on: Nov 23, 2005, 07:17:13 PM »
He's right. Setting the jar in warm tap water should be enough. If you over-warm honey, you drive off the flower essences and get left with sugar syrup.
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stone

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #39 on: Nov 23, 2005, 10:01:23 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:07:45 AM by stone »

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #40 on: Nov 24, 2005, 05:04:48 PM »
Ms. Stone - This confirms what my experience has been. The longest I have kept a rosin cake was about 4 years, with no noticeable change.
However, since we have learned that over a longer extended time period it will oxidise and dry out, that still leaves an open question.  Do the actual properties of the rosin deteriorate as far as using it on the bow, or is it possible that the drying out might  actually improve it's playing properties. Somebody mentioned that they tried a piece of very old rosin on a newly rehaired bow, and had trouble getting it to stick to the hair. However, this is usually the case with fresh bow hair, so it may not be typical. The fact that another cake of soft sticky rosin went on easier also does not give a reliable result, because soft rosin always goes on more easily.
What I am interested to know is what effect a 10 year old rosin would have on a bow that has been in normal use for some time, and how it would compare to the same brand of rosin from a fresh cake. We still don't know if the oxidation  and drying has a bad effect or possibly a good effect.

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #41 on: Nov 24, 2005, 05:18:57 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:04:23 AM by stone »

Offline guta

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #42 on: Nov 24, 2005, 05:36:00 PM »
Ms. Stone - Very interesting. I now have hopes that my Tartini stock will be O.K. to keep, with proper precautions. Perahps the oxydation only forms a "skin" on the surface, and when that is rubbed off retains it's original properties.

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #43 on: Nov 24, 2005, 05:41:52 PM »
I had a block of Hidersine for about 10 years, and only changed it because I'd worn X-shaped groves in it so deep that it was about ready to break into four pieces.

I did notice rosin went on the hair easier when I got a new block, but it wasn't causing me any problem up to then.

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #44 on: Nov 24, 2005, 05:58:14 PM »
Wasteful, Simon.   You need to rotate the block much slower during the next 10 plus years ;D

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #45 on: Nov 24, 2005, 06:34:26 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:04:39 AM by stone »

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #46 on: Nov 24, 2005, 07:02:43 PM »
I usually turn round blocks every which way so the top stays more or less flat. Thriftier that way. ;)
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #47 on: Nov 24, 2005, 07:15:10 PM »
Somebody mentioned that they tried a piece of very old rosin on a newly rehaired bow, and had trouble getting it to stick to the hair. However, this is usually the case with fresh bow hair, so it may not be typical. The fact that another cake of soft sticky rosin went on easier also does not give a reliable result, because soft rosin always goes on more easily.

I think that was me, and if so you didn't understand me correctly.  When I used it, I generally found AB to be very sticky, more so than Hill Dark which is what I switched to after AB.  The cake I have seems to have hardened up quite a bit during the 10-15 years since I last used it, and that was my only point.  Millant-Deroux, which is what I'm using now, is a fairly hard rosin compared to AB or Hill Dark, and it went onto the new bow with no problems, but that's beside the point.  My conjecture was that different rosins seem to behave differently over time, and that it's probably not appropriate to predict how any particular rosin will behave based on experience with another brand. -Steve

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #48 on: Nov 24, 2005, 07:55:39 PM »
I usually turn round blocks every which way so the top stays more or less flat. Thriftier that way. ;)
Thats why I like the round cake I use (brand unknown) I just turn it a little. Mind you I think it is nearly five years old and there is enough for another five years (I guess I don't rosin up a lot just a few strokes here and there) how fast you go through them?
« Last Edit: Nov 24, 2005, 08:10:05 PM by Alan Kroeger »
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #49 on: Nov 24, 2005, 08:18:47 PM »
I've never held on to one long enough to find out. Lose em or drop em is what I usually do. Got some Hill dark that's probably four or five years old and bulky enough to last another 50 if treated tenderly, plus others scattered here and there, and the 25 or 30-year old chunk of Hidersine which is still going strong, but I didn't start that one. Around our house rosin is like pencils or ball-point biros, you can generally find a chunk or two in whatever room you're in.
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #50 on: Nov 25, 2005, 03:23:50 PM »
Thanks Bill I didn't mean that question to be directed specifically at you but, appreciate the reply just the same.

The question still stands how long does a cake of rosin last you?

I ask this because it never ceases to amaze me how many people ask this question. I guess I could understand why it would be replaced if like Beeswing it was dropped (I haven't done that) About 20 years back I used a cake on a wretched bow that my aunt had lying around for 20 years so, very nearly it was likely that the cake was at least 40 years old. I used it on the bow after scratching up the surface and the wreck of a bow drew a pretty fair tone considering it had likely lost most of it's hair (at least 50 %) So, do some of you actually go through a cake or is it that you think there is something wrong with the particular cake you have?
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #51 on: Nov 26, 2005, 10:17:48 PM »
EDITED.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 03:05:07 AM by stone »

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #52 on: Nov 27, 2005, 05:47:29 AM »
Ms. Stone - I haven't tried Tartini green, only Symphony and Solo. They are both topnotch. The Jade is also super, and I use it if the violin I'm playing needs a bit more edge. Seems to me it's good to have a few different rosins on hand, with different properties.   Larry.

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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #53 on: Dec 12, 2005, 12:46:30 AM »
I wonder why the manufacturer has just joined the forum ???
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2005, 01:07:21 AM by madfiddler »
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Re: Tartini to cease all rosin production?
« Reply #54 on: Dec 12, 2005, 01:18:39 AM »
Very interesting indeed!! ???

Betsy

 




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