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Author Topic: Microphone & pickup test  (Read 5783 times)

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Offline Jansberg

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Microphone & pickup test
« on: April 24, 2007, 01:23:44 PM »
Here is a test i have made for a danish magazine called "Musikeren" (the Musician)

You can see pictures of some of the systems here:http://www.musikeren.dk/artikler/vis.asp?intArtikelId=1231

the prices mentioned might not apply anymore

Here it comes

“My Violin, only louder!”
A test of microphones and pickup systems for the violin.
For many violinists, looking for a decent system of amplification for their acoustic instru-ments is a process of constant search.  There is a sea of possibilities these days, from systems based on small condenser microphones, to small piezo-electric transducers, or other electronic pick-ups.
I have tested seven microphones of various makes, in various positions on the violin, and utilizing different methods of affixation.  I have also tested twelve different pick-up systems of various makes.
All the systems, apart from the Stringamp which came built into a violin, were tested on my hungarian violin, a strad. copy by Lajos Konya from 2002.
All the tests were recorded onto a 24 bit HD recorder without any equalisation, so they could be compared directly.  I have separated pick-ups and microphones for the purposes of comparison.
All of the systems have been “out on the town” with me, to be tested on a P.A.  I have looked at how easily each system was mounted and how well they stood up to physical interference.  I have also looked at ease of use with regard to equalisation and feedback.
Microphones
Microphones generally give the most “natural” amplification of sound, in that they carry through the actual sound, phrasings and dynamics of the violin.  But problems abound when using microphones in concert with other instruments, monitors and other micro-phones.  Feedback is the most obvious, but the fact that a microphone can “hear” all the other sound sources on stage leads to a compromise in sound quality, because of a nec-essary filtering of frequencies involved in bringing the violin to the front.
   The English firm Accusound has manufactured microphones for all kinds of instru-ments for many years.  Their violin system consists of a small holder that sits on the tail-piece, a gooseneck, and interchangeable microphone capsules.  There are three choices of capsule; an omni-directional and two different uni-directional ones - a cardioid and a hy-per-cardioid.  Accusound provided two capsules for the test, the omni-directional and the hyper-cardioid.  The sound quality of both tested variations was very good.  The omni-directional mic. gave a more clear, light sound, and the hyper-cardioid a more warm rounded one.  The omni-directional had the gentlest feedback qualities of any of the omnis I tested, and it was difficult to get the Hyper-cardioid to feed at all.  The holder was steady, and quick and easy to mount and adjust, but did seem a bit on the large side.

The Danish firm DPA sent in two systems for the test, the first being the 4061 unidirec-tional, ubiquitous among violinists, with the little rubber holder that holds the microphone between the bridge and the tail piece.  The other is from the compact microphone range, with a cardioid 4021 mic. and a shock absorbing metal holder for a similar placement to the 4061.  The 4061 has a good, very natural sound.  The holder was easy to mount, but has a tendency to move if you’re an active stage player!  This can be helped by carving a little nick into one side of the holder, allowing it to grip the “e” string.
The 4021 was the most expensive, and to my mind the best sounding microphone of the test.  It was clear and warm, and at the same time very detailed.  The holder, which is also very expensive, was however a disappointment.  It is very solid and steady, but also very heavy, and has a tendency to mute the tone of the violin somewhat.  It is also difficult to mount and to adjust.

SD-systems from Holland delivered a unidirectional called the LC110.  This is mounted on a gooseneck that is attached to the tail-piece as one would normally attach a fine tuner.  Unfortunately, my violin is outfitted with a tail piece with built in fine tuners, so it couldn’t be fitted as intended.  A bit of fiddling around with a Danish two crown coin (a coin with a hole in it - a washer would do) though and the microphone was attached to the strings behind the bridge - not pretty, but surprisingly stable and flexible.  The LC110 sounded warm and full of detail, similar in most respects to the DPA 4061.

RIML is another english firm, and they sent in a system called Fiddle-Pro, with a hyper-cardioid microphone, and a holder for mounting in the inner bout on the g-string side of the instrument.  The sound quality on stage was acceptable, but neither as warm or as clear as the other microphones in the test.  The holder on the other hand was, in my opinion, something of a stroke of genius; very quick to mount, very stable, and almost invisible on stage.

AMT also base their microphone on a hyper-cardioid capsule.  The capsule is permanently mounted on a gooseneck, and a metal tube that is attached to the side of the instrument.  I found the sound of the VS system very pleasing - open, warm and very even over all the strings.  This setup was also very resistant to feedback on stage.  The holder on the other hand was not so much of a success in this reviewer’s eyes.  It was slow to mount, and dif-ficult to place comfortably in relation to the shoulder rest.

There is an alternative method of mounting small omni-directional microphones, like the DPA 4061.  It’s a German system called Amplistring.  Amplistring make two different holders; one of black rubber that is clamped on the side of the instrument, and one that replaces the button at the end of the fiddle with one made of aluminium, allowing the mi-crophone to be mounted inside the instrument.  Both holders are very functional.  The Rubber holder is versatile and stable, and not too massive.  The internal microphone placement requires a certain amount of EQ’ing to get it to sound good - there are a lot of strange extra harmonics inside the box, and the sound gets a bit hollow.  But this configu-ration really helps the feedback qualities of the microphone.

Pick-ups
In this the second part of the test, I have looked 12 pick-ups, all based on different princi-ples, and with varying mountings and sounds.
Schertler is a Swiss firm, specialising in pick-ups for acoustic instruments.  They supplied two systems based around, respectively, an electrodynamic pick-up, and an electrostatic pick-up (DYN-V and STAT-V).
The DYN-V system is an circular element about 2,5 cm in diameter and about 1cm thick, that is attached to the instrument with a green putty.  The STAT-V is a small pick-up ele-ment that is fastened to the bridge by means of a small piece of cork which must be ad-justed by the musician to fit his or her own bridge.
The two systems have very different sounds.  Of the two, the DYN-V has the most natural sound, but has a rather weak tone, as is rather nasal.  This can of course be more or less fixed with a bit of EQ’ing.
The STAT-V has a rather “electric” sound with some rather powerful accents on different frequential bands.  Both systems are very feedback resistant.
The system of mounting the DYN-V is stable, but I don’t like the idea of sticking things to my fiddle, even though there were no visible marks after I took it off.  The STAT-V doesn’t need to be stuck to the fiddle, but requires the removal of one of the “wings” of the bridge; another thing I don’t quite approve of!

Autolycus is an Australian pick-up, based on a piezo transducer, attached to the front of the instrument by means of a small clamp.  The sound is, quite typically I fear for a piezo element, a bit thin and nasal, but it can be equalised for a better result.  The clamp is rather aggressive, and one fears that it may, with time, cause damage to the face of the instrument.

C-ducer is an English system based on a PVDF element - or piezo film, as it is also called.  The pick-up is a thin piece of film in a brown plastic sleeve, and is designed to be attached to the soundboard with double sided tape.
I didn’t want to attach anything to the front of my fiddle with double sided tape, so I tried the other method of attachment they describe in the instruction book - putting a piece of plastic over the soundboard, and then attaching the transducer to that.  This sounds diffi-cult, and it is.
The sound quality is excellent for a pick-up, and is very close to the sound produced by microphones.  It also does fairly well in the feedback stakes.

L.R. Baggs and Schatten are an American and a Canadian firm, who have chosen similar configurations for their pick-ups.  Both systems consist of a transducer, ready-mounted in a standard maple bridge- which of course needs to be taken to a violin repair man to be adjusted to fit your fiddle before you can use it.  Schatten also delivered a pickup called VVM for review.  This pick-up is attached to the deck with putty, similarly to the stuff Schertler uses, which means that it can be taken off again easily.  The two bridge-mounted pick-ups are remarkably alike in tone.  They are both warm, rather saxophone-like, in the lower register, and more aggressive the higher you go - with the usual nasal piezo sound.  They are both difficult and expensive to mount, as this requires a visit to your local violin maker, but are, when mounted, very easy to use and don’t have any real effect on the tone of the instrument.  Both systems are very resitant to feedback, but need quite extensive EQ’ing.  Schattens cheaper VVM Pick-up was a pleasant surprise.  It actually sounds quite natural - so much so that I wouldn’t have guessed that it was a piezo based transducer.  As you may have realised, the idea of sticking something to my fiddle doesn’t fill me with joy, but this pick-up only needs a small area.

The English firm Headway, sent in two systems.  One of these, the VL-3, was very similar to the American built-in systems.  This system came with a specially adjusted pre-amp.  The other system, known as The Band, consisted of a rubber strap, like a bicycle inner-tube, that is designed to be wrapped around the violin and fastened with velcro.  It looks a bit overwhelming when mounted, but it works - and you don’t have to stick anything to your fiddle.
The Headways pick-up bridge, and The Band sounded surprisingly good.  The VL-3 sounded a lot more natural than its two North American competitors, and is just as feed-back resistant.  The Band has a fairly natural sound, similar to the VVM pick-up.

B-Band is a Finnish firm offering a wide range of pick-ups for acoustic instruments, and they submitted a system called the S-1 for testing.  This consists of a long flat and flexible 4 cm pick-up fastened with putty as with the Schertler and the Schatten models.  The tone of this innovative system was a disappointing however; without EQ’ing there was a great difference between the powerful G string tone, and the nasal D and A string tones.  Some of this could be remedied on the mixer though.

Kurmann Soundpost is another Swiss system.  This firm mounts the pick-up in the sound post of the instrument - with the plug in the tail button.  The system is therefore completely invisible when mounted, and comes with its own pre-amp and equaliser.  This pick-up needs to be installed by a professional violin maker, as the position of the sound post has more than a casual effect on both the tone of the instrument and the sound of the pick-up.  This pick-up sounds very good, and there are enough options in the pre-amp to make sure that it will sound good practically everywhere.  The price however is perhaps a touch high for most pockets.

Stringamp is a Danish system, used by several well-known jazz violinists.  This system was sent in pre-built into a fiddle, and came with a pre-amp that allows you to adjust the power of each individual string.  You can also get it built into your own violin.
Taking the price into account, Stringamp is not the most natural sounding of the pick-ups in this test.  It has a decidedly nasal tone, as most do, but it does EQ well - as it gives a very “clean” sound, even when you play roughly.  Feedback wise I would say that this system was the best - it was very difficult to get so much as a whine out of.

Many of the pick-ups in this test come with a normal, unbalanced jack socket mounted in a piece of wood for attachment to the violin in a similar fashion to a chin rest.  This gives a very solid connection, and of course the possibility to place the plug in the most comfort-able place.  C-ducer and Schertler have an XLR on theirs.  Kurmann Soundpost has its little plug in the tail button, which is very elegant, but means that you need to remember the special cable for it.  Stringamp uses a Din plug between the violin and pre-amp.

Conclusion
As one would perhaps expect, the sound of the microphones is much better than anything the pick-ups can deliver.  Microphones give a much more detailed picture, and are easy to control, dynamically speaking.  All the systems I have tested deliver a good sound - rang-ing from the RIM fiddle-pro at the bottom, to the DPA 4021 at the top of the scale.  The range in quality is not enormous, but it is clear.  The best systems give a more detailed sound picture and a warmer and more equal tone over the entire range of the violin.
There was much more variation in sound quality amongst the pick-ups.  It can be difficult to evaluate tone quality when you don’t have the different contenders side by side, but cer-tainly none of them managed to perfectly reproduce the sound of my violin, though the C-ducer and the Kurmann Soundpost probably came closest.
The three bridge-mounted systems sounded very similar.  Schatten’s had the warmest tone, and L.R. Bagg’s was lighter, but they both have that characteristically nasal piezo sound.  Headway’s system has a more natural sound, though mainly because of the pre-amp that comes with the set.  Without that it sounded very much like the other two.
The Band and the little VVM pick-up from Schatten were surprisingly good, in that they gave a quite warm and detailed sound, and weren’t so piezo-ish as one would expect.  The VVM only delivered the sound it did however, when I positioned it on the deck of the violin, between bridge and tailpiece, and not on the bridge itself as shown in the instruction book.  When placed on the bridge, it sounded like the others.
The two Schertler systems were very diffferent from each other.  Stat-V sounded very saxophone-ish and the Dyn-V more like a thin sounding dynamic mic.
None of the tested systems are impossible to use live, but it is lovely to have a system that simply works and is reliable.  For this reason I think that kudos must go Kurmann Sound-post for their integration of the pick-up into the instrument, without changing its acoustic qualities.
On the other side of the coin, I would say that the producers of microphones have a lot to learn, when it comes to mounting.  The only microphones in the test that had decent mountings were, in my opinion, Fiddle-Pro and Amplistring.  With these, the microphone stood stock still for the entire concert, and was easy to mount and remove.
As careful readers may have guessed, I don’t like sticking things to my fiddle, either to the deck or back, because I’m afraid that the laquer will be damaged.  Under this category of course come Schertlers DYN-V, Schattens VVM, C-ducer and the Autolycus pick-up (which, by the way, I think clamps far too hard to the deck of the fiddle).
On the subject of feedback, the results were, not surprisingly, that the omni-directional mics were the most sensitive, while the hyper-cardioid mics were more difficult to get to feed.
Pick-ups are, of course, on home ground when it comes to feed-back,and all of the models I tested can play quite loudly before the begin to squeal - but stringamp was definately the best in this category.  I found that the VVM system was more likely to feed back, when po-sitioned where it sounded best.  The Kurmann Soundpost also fed back at lower volume than the others.
There are of course many ways to avoid feed-back.  If you can live without monitors and playing really loud, then you can even get away with using an omni-directional mic.  There are also more technical methods of feed-back control - one can cut all low frequencies on the mixer, or use a so-called “feed-back killer”.  These are available in many different variations and price-ranges.  If however you find that you need to resort to EQ’ing your mic to get the volume you need, you might want to use a pick-up instead.  Another solution would be to mount both a pick-up and a microphone on your fiddle.  You can either mix the signals from the two, or use the pick-up for the monitor signal, and the microphone for the main signal.
The prices of these systems ranges from around $50 for the Autolycus pickup, to around $2000 for the DPA 4021 mic.  As a general rule, you get what you pay for where micro-phones are concerned.  Accusound seems a good buy at around $460.  It sounds good, is easily mounted, and is quite resistant to feed-back.  The pick-ups are a different matter.  I think for example, that Schattens VO-2 and VVM pick-ups give you a lot for your money.  But I wouldn’t use the VVM as a permanent solution.  The C-ducer is also a good buy at around $150 inc. pre-amp, whereas Schertlers systems seem a bit dear, seen in the light of what they can actually do.  If you have to play loud, then Stringamp is the way to go.  It’s expensive, but seems almost impossible to get to feed back.
Everybody wants a system that can be securely fastened to the fiddle, and that sounds like that fiddle - without feed-back - and that is also small and cheap and doesn’t get in the way.  At the moment it isn’t possible to fulfil all these wishes, but if you know what you want to give priority, then you can definitely find something you’ll be happy with.

Henrik Jansberg

Fiddle and Alternative Strings Forum

Microphone & pickup test
« on: April 24, 2007, 01:23:44 PM »

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Offline musiklab

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2007, 02:53:11 PM »
Henrik Jansberg has put a great amount of work in the review.

Since StringAmp is also mentioned, I have some comments to add.
Above all , I take issue with his impression of the StringAmp sound, and now offer any one a way to judge for yourself- see below!

As far as I know , Henrik only tested the systems by recording them "raw" into a computer system, and then listening.
This is possibly NOT the best way of reviewing any device intended for making live sound.  Better would be to actually try how it goes over at a live concert and record it from there. I do see that this would be difficult to do as a magazine test,  unless you had a lot of concerts and time.

My point : Hearing is believing, and a live concert is THE test for a pickup.

 I put two LIVE concert mp3 recordings on my website www.stringAmp.com featuring a very nice acoustic violin with StringAmp with just a little reverb/echo added- very clean and transparent violin sound,  and playing both very quiet and very loud , in all ranges of the violin - this is what the StringAmp can do in the right hands. In this case they belong to Mark Chaet in the Berlin based band TrioBravo+ --- GO HEAR THEM IF YOU GET A CHANCE!

Sadly for me, the Jansberg review was not as favourable as I was hoping, most of all through my own fault. Henrik said he preferred to play synth -perlon strings, so I gave him the only one I had so fitted. But unfortunately, it was not a great acoustic violin.
So when he says the StringAmp is nasal, it´s really the violin/strings combination being not-so-great. Anyway a gentle EQ´íng with a midrange notch would have corrected this particular violin, but such effort may not have been on Henrik´s agenda.
The stringAmp system really does not have a "sound" of it´s own, being utterly transparent of the violin´s acoustics and the playing.

Anyway, this review was years ago, and in the meantime,  I have made a Strings survey of StringAmp suitable strings- of every type and strength imaginable - since not all strings work equally well.
That survey is available by mail musiklab@mail.dkif you care to ask, being too big to attach here. 
Now please go listen- it´s really some great violin playing and some nice music pieces.
All the best, michael.


I make the StringAmp

Offline Jansberg

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2007, 12:25:52 PM »
Just a couple of comments for you Michael

The sound clips on your site are quite good and does show the pickups range.

For my review I actually had the system with me in a live session, and it did sound nasal but that could be corrected with eq - it does eq well like I said in the review.


Offline musiklab

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2007, 12:53:59 PM »
Henrik, thanks  for your kind answer.
the review is a great effort anyway, and I am quite impressed that you even managed to take the systems out to test at a live gig. Very thorough.
Thanks for your comments on the sound clips on my website.
best , Michael.
I make the StringAmp

Offline david lair

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 10:55:25 AM »
Hello, thanks for all the reviews and opinions. I also have tried just about every style out there, and have a few comments to add.
First, I agree that with you about not sticking anything on the soundboard. Some do stick those pickups on the back with decent results.
The bridge pickups with a piezo built in I think work best into a guitar amp then a mic in front of the amp, rather than direct to a soundboard. They work OK.
I really just wanted to mention though the terrific results I enjoy with me Countryman High gain choir mic. I use the hypercardioid model which is designed to hang above a choir, or anywhere you need more sound. It's a condensor mic, so it requires phantom power. It comes with an XLR plug which has an integrated impedance regulator, and 50 feet of wire (thin) on a spool. I first tried a number of different mounting schemes, but always could hear myself from the back of the mic. I guess a cardioid would cure that! Anyway, I now simply wrap the wire once around the chinrest and slide the mic with a foam windscreen under the tailpiece against the top. The sound quality is simply amazing. Amazing! Really.
i also use a lower gain model of the same mic for my mandolin mounted outside the lower F hole.
david blair

http://www.countryman.com/store/product.asp?id=56&catid=10

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 10:55:25 AM »

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Offline Steve_W

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2007, 04:41:45 PM »
Is this mic a repackaging of a Crown GLM?  It looks absolutely identical to it, and the spec's are very similar...
...and then off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony... - Sherlock Holmes

Offline Jansberg

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2007, 08:27:32 PM »
I do not know if the countryman and crown mic is the same..

But I would like to hear more about the mounting method, maybe it could be applied to other mics as well..

Offline Steve_W

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2007, 09:15:22 PM »
Actually a lot of fiddlers around here use that method with various condenser mic's.  Seems to work for them...     I use the DPA 4061 and have been very happy with it. (Regarding your original comments about the mount, I use the above method of wrapping the cord once around the chinrest and it keeps the little hanger in place quite well).
...and then off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony... - Sherlock Holmes

Offline Joel Glassman

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 05:55:17 AM »
David--Do you think there is a benefit to using the Countryman
choir mic rather than Countryman's all purpose Isomax 2 mic?
http://www.countryman.com/store/?catid=10

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 05:55:17 AM »

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Offline Jansberg

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2007, 04:17:30 PM »
It seems to me that theese to mics are the same but with different length cable..

They boh come in cardioid and hyper-cardioid which is interesting, I could be tempted to try both caracteristics to evaluate them..

Offline Joel Glassman

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 04:24:14 AM »
The all purpose Isomax 2 mic is recommended by Countryman for strings, and the other only for choirs (which would seem to be a very different application) There are differences according to the spec sheets ie frequency spectrum. Also, I wonder how a 50 foot cable delays a bow attack.

Offline Tize

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »
I used the DPA mic last night in a gig on tour in France (lent my ATM to the other fiddler) and it was brilliant. The sound was the most natural I've ever heard, no feedback (I had it mounted on the rubber mount below the strings) and it required very little work from the soundman to get exactly the sound I wanted. It was owned by the fiddler in the professional, very well known band we were touring with and he swears by it. I get the feeling the experience could be costing me...!
Debut solo album, 'The Lark's March' out now. More info at triciaclark.co.uk

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 12:10:21 PM »
Hello again, and happy new year to all!

I don't have a Crown mic to compare, but I don't think they are related. I chose between the Crown, Countryman, Shure, Audio Technica. The DPA was to expensive and Joe Mills unavailable. I chose the Countryman for my mandolin because that's what Sam Bush uses, and I like his stage sound. It's incredibly natural. I also was frustrated with everything else I tried because the tone was affected in one way or another. Especially the permanently installed types. So, I got a simple utility pickup (piezo) from Schatten and a Countryman Isomax 11. The pickup is tiny, featherweight, and very high output. I glued it to the top of the bridge (not touching the saddle) and covered it with candle wax. A simple way for a fiddle is to use the putty stuff and press it into the bridge eye. That way feedback is avoided better than if stuck to the soundboard. These sound surprisingly good plugged into an electric guitar amp which can be mic'd. Direct to acoustic amp or soundboard they need to be buffered. One I did with a simple 100k resistor wired in. A cross over circuit would probably work really well.
  For best results playing on a loud live stage with monitors and yikes! drummers even, the pickup gives plenty of juice. The Countryman then I route only to the main speakers so it NEVER feeds back.
Attaching the choir mic to the fiddle is quick and easy. The wire is thin. A foam windscreeen protects the varnish and allows the mic to be wedged between the tailpiece and top. It stays there nicely, and under the tailpiece I avoid annoying breathing sounds. I'm a heavy breather I guess! 
 The Isomax and the Choir are essentially the same except that the choir has an impedance matching preamp in the XLR plug assembly and works best straight into the mixing boar. The choir is a "high gain", hypercardioid, while the Isomax can come in various forms like low, mid, high gain, two or three wire, different output ohm levels, or voltage requirements. They were very helpful with my technical questions and made a specific model rec for my mandolin install-low gain, hyper, two wire, 150 ohm, 9 volt. Outdoors you will need an omni-directional if it gets windy!
  My next project will be using two of the mics and a phase cancelling preamp, no pickup. Money and time! One mic blended with the other so the two signals kill what ambient sound they have in common. Common Mode Rejection. The difference heard by one of the pair (from the closer source) passes through to the amplifier.
  And then only yesterday I came across a new patented mic that does this handily without a special preamp. I wonder about the sound quality though. Check it out.

http://www.theboom.com/v/theboomv4.html

regards,
David Blair

 
 
 
 

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Re: Microphone & pickup test
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 12:10:21 PM »

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